Effect of scalp burns on common male pattern baldness

There is a common thread among these scattered regrowth examples.

  • Lab mice w/human skin grafts = artificially suppressed immune system.

  • Older aged patients = weaker immune system than a young man.

  • Late-stage cancer patients = very weakened overall immune system.

  • Burn victims = a struggling immune system at the site of injury.

» There is a common thread among these scattered regrowth examples.
»
»
»
» - Lab mice w/human skin grafts = artificially suppressed immune system.
»
» - Older aged patients = weaker immune system than a young man.
»
» - Late-stage cancer patients = very weakened overall immune system.
»
» - Burn victims = a struggling immune system at the site of injury.

Let us assume you are right about the need of a weakend immune system and look at the facts of reported wounding and terminal hair growth in humans.
We have seen two reports recently, one with boiling water and the other one with hot cole. Both resulting in some deep and serious wounding.

We also have the article that started it all, “The formation of vellus hair follicles from human adult epedermis”: http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v27/n1/pdf/jid19564a.pdf

In this they dermabraded the skin to “approximate depth of 2 millimeters” and concluded that “we have demonstrated only vellus hair formation and have not the slightest idea whether coarse terminal hair follicles can be regenerated under any circumstance”

All these cases point to the fact that pretty deep wounding is needed and some other factor, perhaps suppresed immune system, is needed for the hair follicles to become terminal and not vellus. Everything else, Egfr, wnt, minoxidil, is probably just to increase the amount of hair follicles.

But I would bet that every home experiment failed due to the wound being too shallow. 2 mm is pretty deep, that would be extremely painful to do your self and there is the risk of scar tissue. Any one up for it? I sure am not.

» There is a common thread among these scattered regrowth examples.
»
»
»
» - Lab mice w/human skin grafts = artificially suppressed immune system.
»
» - Older aged patients = weaker immune system than a young man.
»
» - Late-stage cancer patients = very weakened overall immune system.
»
» - Burn victims = a struggling immune system at the site of injury.

Its pretty clear that MPB is an autoimmune condition triggered by DHT.

Thanks rev. I didn’t read that post, or at least I didn’t pay attention to it when it was posted.

Roger That, would you please answer these questions:

-Do you know what kind of illness Michael Jackson’s scalp had?
-Why do you know that Michel Jackson didn’t seek help from HT doctors?
-Why do you always recommend Dr. Rassman?
-Why do you bring up this subject about MJ again, today, in the HM forum?

» » » » http://www.newhair.com/
»
» » » Stop shilling, roger.
» » » (Hairsite, WHAT IS IT GONNA TAKE for this guy to get
» » » himself banned?)
»
» » posting links to Rassman site? has he done it before?
»
» One of his very first posts was this little gem:
»
» If Michael Jackson had seen Dr. Rassman…
» http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-54775.html
» posted by roger_that, 09.07.2009, 15:34
»
» I think there is a good chance he would still be alive today. I knew
» Michael Jackson (I was not a close friend, just an occasional acquaintance
» but we got along well)… I think that Dr. Rassman or some other HT doctor
» who performs surgery very similar to Dr. Rassman could have saved Michael’s
» scalp. I think Michael’s baldness was partially responsible for his
» depression and that kicked everything over into drug dependency and his
» career decline.

Okay, I was too cathegoric in my analysis, but common sense says than my conclusions are the most probable. Oh, well, you said that you won’t go into probabilities.
This article was published in the British Medical Journal. This is a very important journal. A lot of doctors surely read it. So this event was paid enough attention. I am sure some of these doctors investigated this subject. A baldness cure is a very profitable thing. If this research didn’t go forward is because any of 2 things:
-The event was a fake
-OR the event was very difficult to replicate. But if this had been the case, at least some research would have been published about this matter, about why is so difficult to replicate.

Now back to the pictures, I see no hair in the burned area (suppossedly this area was the area to grow hair, but there is hair everywhere except the burnt area). the third picture is difficult to judge, but I think it confirms that there is no hair in the burned area:

» » exactly ymail.
» » In the 6week photo you can see that no hair is growing in the burned
» area
» » (left), even though it is almost completely healed. The hair is growing
» at
» » the other side (right). In the 4 month photo, it seems that the burned
» area
» » is still without hair (although it is difficult to see).
» » So, I think this is probably a fake. The guy had hair before the
» accident,
» » and he regrowed hair in the non-burned areas. The burned area didn’t
» regrow
» » hair and as a result, became bald (it wasn’t bald before).
» »
» » I cannot say for sure, of course, but lets think with logic. If this was
» a
» » real case of baldness cure, this would have been studied more deeply,
» and
» » today we would have a lot of information about this phenomenon. The
» fact
» » that today this phenomenon is basically unknown, means that these
» » documented cases were not truthful.
» »
» Not going into probabilities but as you say think with logic,you must see
» that some info’s that you present as facts in your analysis should be
» suppressed, or at least, a just sense of validation should be observed in
» treating them.
» So,when you say ,I quote "In the 6week photo you can see that no hair is
» growing in the burned area (left), even though it is almost completely
» healed " - You arrived at this result, as no other hypothesis would meet
» the facts.Perhaps hair was growing,but you (we) can not see it on that
» presented photo. You see what I mean?You have not eliminated that
» hypothesis as impossible,and therefore it might be the truth.
»
» And when you say “If this was a real case of baldness cure, this would
» have been studied more deeply, and today we would have a lot of information
» about this phenomenon. The fact that today this phenomenon is basically
» unknown, means that these documented cases were not truthful.” - you must
» also see that it doesn’t mean that at all.It doesn’t mean must.You
» can’t use such method of exclusion if you employ logic as you say you
» do,because again,many other hypothesis could exist as to why this
» phenomenon was not explored all this time.

» Okay, I was too cathegoric in my analysis, but common sense says than my
» conclusions are the most probable. Oh, well, you said that you won’t go
» into probabilities.
» This article was published in the British Medical Journal. This is a very
» important journal. A lot of doctors surely read it. So this event was paid
» enough attention. I am sure some of these doctors investigated this
» subject. A baldness cure is a very profitable thing. If this research
» didn’t go forward is because any of 2 things:
» -The event was a fake
» -OR the event was very difficult to replicate. But if this had been the
» case, at least some research would have been published about this matter,
» about why is so difficult to replicate.
»
» Now back to the pictures, I see no hair in the burned area (suppossedly
» this area was the area to grow hair, but there is hair everywhere except
» the burnt area). the third picture is difficult to judge, but I think it
» confirms that there is no hair in the burned area:

You are right,common sense says what you told us.Simply the photos presented are worthless.We don’t even have before photo of the subject.And the after photos are of poor quality.Why would human body react to wound differently than a body of a livestock when branded with hot iron rod?Hair doesn’t grow back on the livestock when a hot iron rod is pressed against the hair full skin.

the best method for investigating one’s beliefs is as soon as we have thought of something,try to see in what way the contrary is true.Maybe those who succeed best in their enterprises do not merely call upon their virtues and talents,but also in some way are able to make use of their defects,as,for instance,the neurotic psychoanalyst who employs his defect in the service of his enterprise.We need a genious who is very frustated and unhappy because he is bald… Here gathered, we who have no knowledge about this affairs from scientific aspect,call our information common sense,and those who have knowledge,the educated man in this affairs,are calling their information knowledge.We need the bald genius who knows how little knowledge he has and how useless is his common sense for solving uncommon problems :slight_smile:

» Thanks rev. I didn’t read that post, or at least I didn’t pay attention to
» it when it was posted.
»
» Roger That, would you please answer these questions:
»
» -Do you know what kind of illness Michael Jackson’s scalp had?
» -Why do you know that Michel Jackson didn’t seek help from HT doctors?
» -Why do you always recommend Dr. Rassman?
» -Why do you bring up this subject about MJ again, today, in the HM forum?

The main problem with Michael Jackson’s scalp wasn’t so much a disease, but the extensive third-degree burns he sustained in the Pepsi commercial accident in 1984.

At the time of the accident, press releases and PR people said Michael sustained a burn only in a small area on the back of his head, and that he had surgery to close the scorched area and remove the bald spot created. For public relations reasons, Michael’s agents and promoters (and presumably Michael himself) decided it would be greatly against his interests as an entertainer to openly discuss the extent of his hairloss to the public. Imagine how devastating it would be, being the hottest entertainer in the world, and then having to admit to your millions of fans, at the height of your career, as a young man, that you are in reality bald.

I looked at the video they released of that incident last summer and I can hardly believe he got such serious burns in such a short amount of time.

Once his hair caught fire it was only a matter of seconds before they jumped on it. I could see first or even second degree burns, but THIRD degree burns? Over such a large area that it was not even transplantable?

okay, you answered 2 questions. (1 and 4).
what about the other 2?

» » Thanks rev. I didn’t read that post, or at least I didn’t pay attention
» to
» » it when it was posted.
» »
» » Roger That, would you please answer these questions:
» »
» » -Do you know what kind of illness Michael Jackson’s scalp had?
» » -Why do you know that Michel Jackson didn’t seek help from HT doctors?
» » -Why do you always recommend Dr. Rassman?
» » -Why do you bring up this subject about MJ again, today, in the HM
» forum?
»
»
» The main problem with Michael Jackson’s scalp wasn’t so much a disease,
» but the extensive third-degree burns he sustained in the Pepsi commercial
» accident in 1984.
»
» At the time of the accident, press releases and PR people said Michael
» sustained a burn only in a small area on the back of his head, and that he
» had surgery to close the scorched area and remove the bald spot created.
» For public relations reasons, Michael’s agents and promoters (and
» presumably Michael himself) decided it would be greatly against his
» interests as an entertainer to openly discuss the extent of his hairloss to
» the public. Imagine how devastating it would be, being the hottest
» entertainer in the world, and then having to admit to your millions of
» fans, at the height of your career, as a young man, that you are in reality
» bald.

» I looked at the video they released of that incident last summer and I can
» hardly believe he got such serious burns in such a short amount of time.
»
» Once his hair caught fire it was only a matter of seconds before they
» jumped on it. I could see first or even second degree burns, but THIRD
» degree burns? Over such a large area that it was not even transplantable?

The problem was the chemical “relaxants” Michael was using on his hair, a sort of pomade which turns kinky hair straight. These agents are known to be extremely dangerous if ignited. The hair will burn straight to the roots and kill the follicles.

The burns Michael sustained were a combination of second and third degree burns.

Regarding Spanish Dude’s other questions, I will address them at a later time, but let me just say that the ONLY reason I linked Dr. Rassman’s site is to call attention to the fact that Michael’s ORIGINAL problem (apart from family problems), which caused him so much pain – physical as well as emotional – and caused him to become a recluse for so many years was his hairloss.

I am NOT associated in any way with Dr. Rassman.

mickael jackson was assassinated by the illuminatis… the new world order, searches in youtube.

okay, I have just seen the video when Michael goes on fire:

Roger_That could be right.
But what the hell has this to do with Rassman?
Why do you assume that Michael didn’t seek help from any hair experts?
And why do you recommend Rassman every time?

» » I looked at the video they released of that incident last summer and I
» can
» » hardly believe he got such serious burns in such a short amount of time.
»
» »
» » Once his hair caught fire it was only a matter of seconds before they
» » jumped on it. I could see first or even second degree burns, but THIRD
» » degree burns? Over such a large area that it was not even
» transplantable?
»
» The problem was the chemical “relaxants” Michael was using on his hair, a
» sort of pomade which turns kinky hair straight. These agents are known to
» be extremely dangerous if ignited. The hair will burn straight to the
» roots and kill the follicles.
»
» The burns Michael sustained were a combination of second and third degree
» burns.
»
» Regarding Spanish Dude’s other questions, I will address them at a later
» time, but let me just say that the ONLY reason I linked Dr. Rassman’s site
» is to call attention to the fact that Michael’s ORIGINAL problem (apart
» from family problems), which caused him so much pain – physical as well as
» emotional – and caused him to become a recluse for so many years was his
» hairloss.
»
» I am NOT associated in any way with Dr. Rassman.

okay, I agree that sometimes, things are not what they seem, and we must investigate if the opposite is true.
Precisely, this is what I did.
When I read this article, at first, I said: oh, how interesting, a burn can grow hair. But then, I considered another possibility, a hidden truth: this could be a fake. And indeed I have found a few reasons to doubt of this event’s authenticity.

Of course I don’t know if this is a fake or not, but I would be cautious before setting my scalp on fire trying to emulate that old man’s deed.

You are right, when cattle is marked with red-hot iron, they don’t grow hair there. Probably even mice won’t grow hair if they are marked this way.

Just for completeness, we could consider another posibility: that the old man did grew hair around the burn site, but not on the burn site. I mean, at the burn site, the miniaturized follicles were totally destroyed, and incapable of creating hair anymore. But around the burn site, the miniaturized follicles benefitted from the local immunosupression, and nutrients excess, and thus, started producing terminal hair. But the article gives no details, so its pretty worthless.

» the best method for investigating one’s beliefs is as soon as we have
» thought of something,try to see in what way the contrary is true.Maybe
» those who succeed best in their enterprises do not merely call upon their
» virtues and talents,but also in some way are able to make use of their
» defects,as,for instance,the neurotic psychoanalyst who employs his defect
» in the service of his enterprise.We need a genious who is very frustated
» and unhappy because he is bald… Here gathered, we who have no knowledge
» about this affairs from scientific aspect,call our information common
» sense,and those who have knowledge,the educated man in this affairs,are
» calling their information knowledge.We need the bald genius who knows how
» little knowledge he has and how useless is his common sense for solving
» uncommon problems :slight_smile:

I spent a moment trying to understand your “acquaintance” to Michael Jackson than it hit me.

You’re his former chimp Bubbles. It fits like a crystal-studded glove (pardon my pun).
Given the right circumstances, chimps are capable of typing (which would explain your
ability to write these posts), and chimps do suffer from hairloss (which would explain
your interest in hairsite).

I found a recent pic of bubbles/ you, and it looks like he’s/you’re heading towards a NW4.
That sucks!!!

» » I looked at the video they released of that incident last summer and I
» can
» » hardly believe he got such serious burns in such a short amount of time.
»
» »
» » Once his hair caught fire it was only a matter of seconds before they
» » jumped on it. I could see first or even second degree burns, but THIRD
» » degree burns? Over such a large area that it was not even
» transplantable?
»
» The problem was the chemical “relaxants” Michael was using on his hair, a
» sort of pomade which turns kinky hair straight. These agents are known to
» be extremely dangerous if ignited. The hair will burn straight to the
» roots and kill the follicles.
»
» The burns Michael sustained were a combination of second and third degree
» burns.
»
» Regarding Spanish Dude’s other questions, I will address them at a later
» time, but let me just say that the ONLY reason I linked Dr. Rassman’s site
» is to call attention to the fact that Michael’s ORIGINAL problem (apart
» from family problems), which caused him so much pain – physical as well as
» emotional – and caused him to become a recluse for so many years was his
» hairloss.
»
» I am NOT associated in any way with Dr. Rassman.

» okay, I agree that sometimes, things are not what they seem, and we must
» investigate if the opposite is true.
» Precisely, this is what I did.
» When I read this article, at first, I said: oh, how interesting, a burn
» can grow hair. But then, I considered another possibility, a hidden truth:
» this could be a fake. And indeed I have found a few reasons to doubt of
» this event’s authenticity.
»
» Of course I don’t know if this is a fake or not, but I would be cautious
» before setting my scalp on fire trying to emulate that old man’s deed.
»
» You are right, when cattle is marked with red-hot iron, they don’t grow
» hair there. Probably even mice won’t grow hair if they are marked this
» way.
»
» Just for completeness, we could consider another posibility: that the old
» man did grew hair around the burn site, but not on the burn site. I mean,
» at the burn site, the miniaturized follicles were totally destroyed, and
» incapable of creating hair anymore. But around the burn site, the
» miniaturized follicles benefitted from the local immunosupression, and
» nutrients excess, and thus, started producing terminal hair. But the
» article gives no details, so its pretty worthless.
»

OK,so the damage on the tissue has to be done to a degree,not too strong to destroy tissue,but strong enough to provoke certain body response.So the cattle example is not aplicable because the damage exceeds the optimal infliction of tissue damage.I just pointed that example because it happens in huge numbers and great frequency.I really don’t know man,last time I studied science was 20 years ago, in high school.I can’t be match for you guys. I just like reading this forum from time to time due to having a sparse social life in this cold winter :slight_smile: …so if I ever make my little comments don’t take it against me,I imagine they are cute,but more likely they are only in poor taste and in my own dry way :slight_smile:

That’s the fact, we can’t obtain so much information from this study, they didn’t describe how much regrowth and where, so all the information are these crappy photos. However I don’t think this article is fake, just think, how many possibilities are there for discover (accidentally, with a fake/joke) that wounding/burn can regrowth hair? Furthermore in 1986.

The example of livestock branding it’s not valid to me. Not all type of woundings can regrowth hair, it’s very important the wounding depth and I don’t think that the hot iron does only a superficial wounding (also they do this action at very high temperatures, another important variable I think).

» okay, I agree that sometimes, things are not what they seem, and we must
» investigate if the opposite is true.
» Precisely, this is what I did.
» When I read this article, at first, I said: oh, how interesting, a burn
» can grow hair. But then, I considered another possibility, a hidden truth:
» this could be a fake. And indeed I have found a few reasons to doubt of
» this event’s authenticity.
»
» Of course I don’t know if this is a fake or not, but I would be cautious
» before setting my scalp on fire trying to emulate that old man’s deed.
»
» You are right, when cattle is marked with red-hot iron, they don’t grow
» hair there. Probably even mice won’t grow hair if they are marked this
» way.
»
» Just for completeness, we could consider another posibility: that the old
» man did grew hair around the burn site, but not on the burn site. I mean,
» at the burn site, the miniaturized follicles were totally destroyed, and
» incapable of creating hair anymore. But around the burn site, the
» miniaturized follicles benefitted from the local immunosupression, and
» nutrients excess, and thus, started producing terminal hair. But the
» article gives no details, so its pretty worthless.
»
» » the best method for investigating one’s beliefs is as soon as we have
» » thought of something,try to see in what way the contrary is true.Maybe
» » those who succeed best in their enterprises do not merely call upon
» their
» » virtues and talents,but also in some way are able to make use of their
» » defects,as,for instance,the neurotic psychoanalyst who employs his
» defect
» » in the service of his enterprise.We need a genious who is very
» frustated
» » and unhappy because he is bald… Here gathered, we who have no
» knowledge
» » about this affairs from scientific aspect,call our information common
» » sense,and those who have knowledge,the educated man in this affairs,are
» » calling their information knowledge.We need the bald genius who knows
» how
» » little knowledge he has and how useless is his common sense for solving
» » uncommon problems :slight_smile:

» There is a common thread among these scattered regrowth examples.
»
»
»
» - Lab mice w/human skin grafts = artificially suppressed immune system.
»
» - Older aged patients = weaker immune system than a young man.
»
» - Late-stage cancer patients = very weakened overall immune system.
»
» - Burn victims = a struggling immune system at the site of injury.

Im not so sure the immune thing is that big a deal. A year or so ago when i was really up on this stuff i think i remember reading that an immune response was actually critical to the process. If anything i think a more important factor would be 78 year old man = very little androgen action = very little DKF-1 secretion = more WNT signalling.
hh

» Okay, I was too cathegoric in my analysis, but common sense says than my
» conclusions are the most probable. Oh, well, you said that you won’t go
» into probabilities.
» This article was published in the British Medical Journal. This is a very
» important journal. A lot of doctors surely read it. So this event was paid
» enough attention. I am sure some of these doctors investigated this
» subject. A baldness cure is a very profitable thing. If this research
» didn’t go forward is because any of 2 things:
» -The event was a fake
» -OR the event was very difficult to replicate. But if this had been the
» case, at least some research would have been published about this matter,
» about why is so difficult to replicate.

Well…the guy did fall headfirst into a fire. When they say “Although interesting, it is dificult to see how this type of stimulation could be applied therapeutically” they are saying that nobody is going to want to burn there scalps to get some hair back. Obviously it didnt scream $ signs to anyone but i guess they werent considering people who hang out at places like this who would do pretty much anything for hair. For the average person minox is too much hassle.

» Now back to the pictures, I see no hair in the burned area (suppossedly
» this area was the area to grow hair, but there is hair everywhere except
» the burnt area). the third picture is difficult to judge, but I think it
» confirms that there is no hair in the burned area:

I am pretty certain the hair growth was not on the scab itself but on the scalp surrounding the wound. IT has been commonly reported that wounds stimulate the growth of hair surrounding the wounds and not just the development of new follicles. That always seems to be forgotten though for some reason. The last photo seems to show new hair development.
hh

Im not so sure the immune thing is that big a deal. A year or so ago when i was really up on this stuff i think i remember reading that an immune response was actually critical to the process. If anything i think a more important factor would be 78 year old man = very little androgen action = very little DKF-1 secretion = more WNT signalling.
hh

It’s probably not as simple as “immune system strong = bad for hair.”

I think there has been some evidence that either suppressing or strengthening the immune system is capable of helping hair in one set of circumstaces or another. Perhaps the immune system’s negative effect on hair is something more indirect than the primary functions (of the immune system).

Also, I don’t know what kind of androgen activity, DKF-1, etc, is happening on the experimental lab mice with human skin grafts. I doubt the researchers sourced their skin graft samples from 78-year-old men. It’s more likely that the graft samples were sourced from men several decades younger. And those mice didn’t have much problem sprouting serious amounts of hair.

Even if the older age is a real factor, I would assume (and hope) that topical or systemic AAs would be adequate to duplicate the conditions on guys like us. It would probably only need to be done for a very short time.

** Remember how often Finasteride occurred in the Folica patents? Now it makes me wonder. **