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Dut and frontal hair line loss


#1

Does anyone have an explanation why dut seems to take a big hit on the frontal hair lines. This has been reported on dozens of hair loss forums.
Thanks.


#2

» Does anyone have an explanation why dut seems to take a big hit on the
» frontal hair lines. This has been reported on dozens of hair loss forums.
» Thanks.

sorry nobody has responded to u mike. on this forum people will read it and walk right by. thats why its becoming so inactive. it used to be pretty damn good

i will answer it best i can and hope someone can chime in to add or correct me. dut raises test levels and the frontal portion of the scalp is sensitive to test androgens. dht is NOT the only angrogen that harms our hair. if ure hair is sensitive to test then it will affect ure follicles. thats why most people get sheds in the front with dut. u can either ride it out and hope it returns and add strong topical anti-androgens like flutimide or RU58841, or get off dut slowly and start finasteride along with other treatments.


#3

Dear god, somebody has to put an end to this myth about dut increasing frontal hair loss. There is NO evidence that dut does this. All people have to go off of over the last 10 or so years is a smattering of anecdotes from users on boards such as these. This has got to stop. If your frontal hair loss is increasing from dut, it’s either because 1) you’re not a good responder 2) it’s a shed and will grow back 3) your dut is fake

This whole notion of an increase in testosterone affecting frontal hair follicles because they are more sensitive is crap. People with a congenital absence of the enzyme that converts test to DHT do not go bald. Fact. Therefore, testosterone does not in and of itself cause baldness. The increase in scalp testosterone in dut is because dut reduces more DHT than fin and therefore the testosterone that was supposed to be converted to DHT lingers on. But obviously that test would have done damage had it been converted to DHT. Dut does not just make testosterone willy nilly from out of nowhere. All it does is reduce the enzyme that coverts test to DHT.

SO PLEASE, stop propogating this theory and scaring people off dut. If you’re going to use dut, buy AVODART from a pharmacy so you know it’s real. And if you’re shedding, stick with it. But avodart will not make you go more bald. There have been too many studies where this has never happened. All there is are people who freaked out during a shed, bought bad dut, don’t respond well to the meds, or people like El Dut who thinks he knows what he’s talking about but has no science to back it up.


#4

» Dear god, somebody has to put an end to this myth about dut increasing
» frontal hair loss. There is NO evidence that dut does this. All people have
» to go off of over the last 10 or so years is a smattering of anecdotes from
» users on boards such as these. This has got to stop. If your frontal hair
» loss is increasing from dut, it’s either because 1) you’re not a good
» responder 2) it’s a shed and will grow back 3) your dut is fake
»
» This whole notion of an increase in testosterone affecting frontal hair
» follicles because they are more sensitive is crap. People with a congenital
» absence of the enzyme that converts test to DHT do not go bald. Fact.

» Therefore, testosterone does not in and of itself cause baldness. The
» increase in scalp testosterone in dut is because dut reduces more DHT than
» fin and therefore the testosterone that was supposed to be converted to DHT
» lingers on.
^Appreciate this input here. I researched this and confirm that this is correct. I don’t understand why many physicians say it increases your test then. That’s misleading.

» But obviously that test would have done damage had it been
» converted to DHT. Dut does not just make testosterone willy nilly from out
» of nowhere. All it does is reduce the enzyme that coverts test to DHT.
»
» SO PLEASE, stop propogating this theory and scaring people off dut. If
» you’re going to use dut, buy AVODART from a pharmacy so you know it’s real.
» And if you’re shedding, stick with it. But avodart will not make you go
» more bald. There have been too many studies where this has never happened.
» All there is are people who freaked out during a shed, bought bad dut,
» don’t respond well to the meds, or people like El Dut who thinks he knows
» what he’s talking about but has no science to back it up.

Thanks for chiming in, but I think I made it clear that I was not sure of my answer but was giving the general consensus of why dut shed the front areas since I see zero studies or medical journals related to the topic. What studies are you refering to that say otherwise? I’m not disagreeing with you, infact I hope you’re 100% correct.

Technically speaking this means that if you are inhibiting 95% conversion of test to dht, then any extra amount of exogenous testosterone will not affect/accelerate hairloss. Right?


#5

“dut raises test levels and the frontal portion of the scalp is sensitive to test androgens. dht is NOT the only angrogen that harms our hair. if ure hair is sensitive to test then it will affect ure follicles. thats why most people get sheds in the front with dut.”

This does not make it clear that it’s only a suggestion and you’re not sure. You’re stating this as fact when it is NOT a fact. Look, the study of the 17 pairs of twins involved those from norwood II to VI. If there were reports of frontal hair loss on the drug it would have been mentioned in the study. Testosterone may harm hair in an of itself, but what’s clear is that the effect is negligible in comparison to DHT. That testosterone on the scalp would have been DHT but for the the avodart. So any hair loss would have been WAY worse without avodart. It’s that simple. If you really look around you’ll find maybe four or five people reporting frontal hair loss from dut since 2002. Who knows, maybe it’s only two guys but they posted in different forums under different names. I want to know if they were using real avodart, and I want to know if they came back six months later to report whether or not it was a shed that simply came back. Fact is, if they did lose hair, they were going to anyway and simply don’t respond well to inhibitors.


#6

» “dut raises test levels and the frontal portion of the scalp is sensitive
» to test androgens. dht is NOT the only angrogen that harms our hair. if ure
» hair is sensitive to test then it will affect ure follicles. thats why most
» people get sheds in the front with dut.”
»
» This does not make it clear that it’s only a suggestion and you’re not
» sure. You’re stating this as fact when it is NOT a fact. Look, the study of
» the 17 pairs of twins involved those from norwood II to VI. If there were
» reports of frontal hair loss on the drug it would have been mentioned in
» the study. Testosterone may harm hair in an of itself, but what’s clear is
» that the effect is negligible in comparison to DHT. That testosterone on
» the scalp would have been DHT but for the the avodart. So any hair loss
» would have been WAY worse without avodart. It’s that simple. If you really
» look around you’ll find maybe four or five people reporting frontal hair
» loss from dut since 2002. Who knows, maybe it’s only two guys but they
» posted in different forums under different names. I want to know if they
» were using real avodart, and I want to know if they came back six months
» later to report whether or not it was a shed that simply came back. Fact
» is, if they did lose hair, they were going to anyway and simply don’t
» respond well to inhibitors.

“i will answer it best i can and hope someone can chime in to add or correct me.”

^ i thought that made it clear. wasn’t my intention to mislead anyone.

and u make good points, welcome the forum.

r u aware that glaxosmith is going into trials in january of 2010 with avodart for mpb?


#7

» “dut raises test levels and the frontal portion of the scalp is sensitive
» to test androgens. dht is NOT the only angrogen that harms our hair. if ure
» hair is sensitive to test then it will affect ure follicles. thats why most
» people get sheds in the front with dut.”
»
» This does not make it clear that it’s only a suggestion and you’re not
» sure. You’re stating this as fact when it is NOT a fact. Look, the study of
» the 17 pairs of twins involved those from norwood II to VI. If there were
» reports of frontal hair loss on the drug it would have been mentioned in
» the study. Testosterone may harm hair in an of itself, but what’s clear is
» that the effect is negligible in comparison to DHT. That testosterone on
» the scalp would have been DHT but for the the avodart. So any hair loss
» would have been WAY worse without avodart. It’s that simple. If you really
» look around you’ll find maybe four or five people reporting frontal hair
» loss from dut since 2002. Who knows, maybe it’s only two guys but they
» posted in different forums under different names. I want to know if they
» were using real avodart, and I want to know if they came back six months
» later to report whether or not it was a shed that simply came back. Fact
» is, if they did lose hair, they were going to anyway and simply don’t
» respond well to inhibitors.

Hi

Do you know where is the location of the androgen receptors in the follicle for the DHT to attach to?
Has anyone researched that?If not,do you know why not?

I read that the AR gene provides instructions for making a protein called an androgen receptor. Androgens are hormones (such as testosterone) that are important for normal male sexual development . So,AR allow the body to respond appropriately to these hormones. The receptors are present in many of the body’s tissues, where they attach (bind) to androgens. The resulting androgen-receptor complex then binds to DNA and regulates the activity of androgen-responsive genes. By turning the genes on or off as necessary, the androgen receptor helps direct the development of male sexual characteristics.
I read that alterations in the AR gene are associated with an increased risk of androgenetic alopecia (MPB).

Although androgenetic alopecia is related to the effects of androgens on hair growth, it remains unclear how changes in the AR gene increase the risk of patterned hair loss in men with this condition.

So,those little bastards,AR,are positioned all over our body’s tissues to do their job.Where is the position of those AR that regulate the folicles response to androgens?

Has there been study for that?

Is it possible(note: I am not saying probable)that pigment cells in the folicle host such AR?


#8

» Do you know where is the location of the androgen receptors
» in the follicle for the DHT to attach to?

They’re located in the cells of the dermal papillae, and possibly other areas of the hair follicle.

» I read that alterations in the AR gene are associated with an increased
» risk of androgenetic alopecia (MPB).
»
» Although androgenetic alopecia is related to the effects of androgens on
» hair growth, it remains unclear how changes in the AR gene increase the
» risk of patterned hair loss in men with this condition.

Certain polymorphisms of the androgen receptor are presumably more sensitive to androgens than others.

» So,those little bastards,AR,are positioned all over our body’s tissues to
» do their job.Where is the position of those AR that regulate the folicles
» response to androgens?
»
» Has there been study for that?

Of course. Androgen receptors are in dermal papilla cells.

» Is it possible(note: I am not saying probable)that pigment cells in
» the folicle host such AR?

Not sure about that.


#9

» » Do you know where is the location of the androgen receptors
» » in the follicle for the DHT to attach to?
»
» They’re located in the cells of the dermal papillae, and possibly other
» areas of the hair follicle.
»
» » I read that alterations in the AR gene are associated with an increased
» » risk of androgenetic alopecia (MPB).
» »
» » Although androgenetic alopecia is related to the effects of androgens
» on
» » hair growth, it remains unclear how changes in the AR gene increase
» the
» » risk of patterned hair loss in men with this condition.

»
» Certain polymorphisms of the androgen receptor are presumably more
» sensitive to androgens than others.
»
» » So,those little bastards,AR,are positioned all over our body’s tissues
» to
» » do their job.Where is the position of those AR that regulate the
» folicles
» » response to androgens?
» »
» » Has there been study for that?
»
» Of course. Androgen receptors are in dermal papilla cells.
»
» » Is it possible(note: I am not saying probable)that pigment cells
» in
» » the folicle host such AR?
»
» Not sure about that.

Thanks Bryan


#10

Here is some good reading pieces from the book:

Hair and its disorders: biology, pathology and management By Francisco M. Camacho, Valerie A. Randall, Vera H. Price
http://books.google.com/books?...n%20receptors&f=false

“Increasing the concentration of testosterone enables it to reach a high binding rate equivalent to DHT.”

Notice how the author mentions Androgens as the cause of the hairloss and does not limit to DHT only.

Here is another intersting piece of info:
http://www.androscience.com/dermatology_indications.php#Alopecia

“ARD enhancer induce AR degradation and would therefore be more effective than conventional anti-androgens such as Finasteride, which only reduces DHT but not testosterone or other factors that are known to bind to and activate AR.”

SO it is clear that DHT is not the only androgen causing hairloss, even though it is the most powerful of the Androgens.

DUT does increase testosterone. FIN also does upregulate/increase the number of androgen receptors.

DUT will be beneficial to your hairline overall since DHT is the most potent androgen, but you ALSO must address the testosterone issue.I took DUT (real avodart) 0.5 a day for 4 years and it saved my hairline, but after 4 years the thinning resumed and I had to add some topical anti-androgens to the mix.


#11

Thanks ebutterg for responding but I’m just reporting what I see. I am using genuine Avodart and didn’t reply as i wanted some more time to see results. After five months now (since sept 09) My crown continues to fill in but my front hairline continues to recede. Normal recession? I had a good hairline and suddenly it is down one inch since beginning Avodart? what could it be ? I’m not a good responder? If this was true then I would not have had such good growth on the crown area. When I say that I am taking a hit on my front hairline I’m not talking about sheding I mean real receding. Any thoughts? Thanks.


#12

» Thanks ebutterg for responding but I’m just reporting what I see. I am
» using genuine Avodart and didn’t reply as i wanted some more time to see
» results. After five months now (since sept 09) My crown continues to fill
» in but my front hairline continues to recede. Normal recession? I had a
» good hairline and suddenly it is down one inch since beginning Avodart?
» what could it be ? I’m not a good responder? If this was true then I would
» not have had such good growth on the crown area. When I say that I am
» taking a hit on my front hairline I’m not talking about sheding I mean real
» receding. Any thoughts? Thanks.

I’ve taken a hit to the hairline since starting Dut as well, but its more likely to be the natural progression of my hair loss than any result of Dut.


#13

Hi fckhrls,
I just started an anti androgen topical as suggested on many sites for hairlines. Interesting though, the transplanted hair does not seem to be affected by a suspected Avodart influenced testosterone increase. I’m looking at a spring HT for the front. maybe 1000 grafts.
One unfortunate note is that I doubt any lost hair will ever return. At least I haven’t seen any posts to this any way.


#14

well, this is just my guess, so plz don’t throw rocks at me if I ain’t right.

usually men alopecia starts with a frontal shedding, so I suppose that part of the scalp is the most sensible when regarding hair-loss. dut and fin are actually drugs that stop or slow down the shedding, so maybe the frontal part is the less affected by them, or maybe it just needs a higher dose for maintenance.

that’s just my guess