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Dr. Lee\'s BS - 12% minox, xandrox, 6% minox = crap


#1

Ss I’m browing Dr. Lee’s products for hair on minoxidil dot com and was really interested in the higher than 5% minoxidil solutions. But the problem was that there were never any studies conducted to prove it’s effectiveness nor do I see a sworm of people swearing by it.

When you click on any of his products you are immediately referred to another page solely on the product you clicked. In other words, the whole page describes how to use the specific product, it’s effectiveness, how it works, and furhter info. which are mostly answered through the Questions & Answers on that specific page. Thus when I clicked on 12.5% minoxidil I was redirected to the info on 12.5% minoxidil solution and the Questions & Answers posed for it. Now keep in mind that the first thing you and I would say to ourselves is "Eeeh? As much as I would love to use a stronger minoxidil than 5%, does it work? Can more percentage of minoxidil mean better results? More growth? better regrowth? Is this proven through any studiess?"
So what do you see in the Questions and Answers below the 12.5% minoxidil solution you are interested in purchasing? You see the followng Question and Answer:

Q. Can you cite a scientific reference demonstrating that higher doses of topical minoxidil improve the results in the treatment of MPB?
A. An excellent study relating dosage to results was reported in this article: Olsen, EA, DeLong ER, Weiner MS. Dose-response study of topical minoxidil in male pattern baldness. J Am Acad Dermatol. 1986;15:30-37.” (Dr. Lee, http://www.minoxidil.com/subpages/faqs/faq_minoxidil_12.html).

Now the average reader upon reading the above Question and Answer will say to himself “Oh wow, it’s proven through scientific studies that 12.5% works better than 5%! The higher concentration of minoxidil the better the results”!
What’s the point? When you research and find the article the study was conducted to determine the effectiveness of minoxidil UNDER 5% CONCENTRATION!. It was a study comparing 2%, 3%, and 5%. Ultimately 2% was just as good and as equal in effectiveness as 3% (more is not necessarily better.

I find that that specific question and answer is intentionaly posed in a certain way by dr lee to mislead readers into purchasing solutions over 5%. On every forum (as some of you know) I have always given the the green light on dr lee’s products. But I must admit that his credibility is out the window with me now. By the way, I ALMOST bought the 15% “Xandrox” crap until I researched the study he cited when he referred to it as “a study that shows the higher the minoxidil % the better”.

By the way, I have always emailed him and received prompt responses, sometimes even on the same day. It’s been 2 days since I emailed dr lee as to why mislead the readers in thinking his study he cited means the more minoxidil the better when that’s total BS, and he’s not emailed me back.

here is the actual study he cited and purposely misinterpreted it to mislead people into buying “Xandrox” crap and minoxidil over 5% solutions:
http://www.ijdvl.com/article.asp?issn=0378-6323;year=1990;volume=56;issue=3;spage=187;epage=192;aulast=kubba


#2

» Ss I’m browing Dr. Lee’s products for hair on minoxidil dot com and was
» really interested in the higher than 5% minoxidil solutions. But the
» problem was that there were never any studies conducted to prove it’s
» effectiveness nor do I see a sworm of people swearing by it.
»
» When you click on any of his products you are immediately referred to
» another page solely on the product you clicked. In other words, the whole
» page describes how to use the specific product, it’s effectiveness, how it
» works, and furhter info. which are mostly answered through the Questions &
» Answers on that specific page. Thus when I clicked on 12.5% minoxidil I
» was redirected to the info on 12.5% minoxidil solution and the Questions &
» Answers posed for it. Now keep in mind that the first thing you and I
» would say to ourselves is “Eeeh? As much as I would love to use a stronger
» minoxidil than 5%, does it work? Can more percentage of minoxidil mean
» better results? More growth? better regrowth? Is this proven through any
» studiess?”
» So what do you see in the Questions and Answers below the 12.5% minoxidil
» solution you are interested in purchasing? You see the followng Question
» and Answer:
»
» “Q. Can you cite a scientific reference demonstrating that higher doses
» of topical minoxidil improve the results in the treatment of MPB?

» A. An excellent study relating dosage to results was reported in this
» article: Olsen, EA, DeLong ER, Weiner MS. Dose-response study of topical
» minoxidil in male pattern baldness. J Am Acad Dermatol. 1986;15:30-37.”
» (Dr. Lee, http://www.minoxidil.com/subpages/faqs/faq_minoxidil_12.html).
»
» Now the average reader upon reading the above Question and Answer will say
» to himself “Oh wow, it’s proven through scientific studies that 12.5% works
» better than 5%! The higher concentration of minoxidil the better the
» results”!
» What’s the point? When you research and find the article the study was
» conducted to determine the effectiveness of minoxidil UNDER 5%
» CONCENTRATION!. It was a study comparing 2%, 3%, and 5%. Ultimately 2% was
» just as good and as equal in effectiveness as 3% (more is not necessarily
» better.
»
» I find that that specific question and answer is intentionaly posed in a
» certain way by dr lee to mislead readers into purchasing solutions over 5%.
» On every forum (as some of you know) I have always given the the green
» light on dr lee’s products. But I must admit that his credibility is out
» the window with me now. By the way, I ALMOST bought the 15% “Xandrox” crap
» until I researched the study he cited when he referred to it as “a study
» that shows the higher the minoxidil % the better”.
»
» By the way, I have always emailed him and received prompt responses,
» sometimes even on the same day. It’s been 2 days since I emailed dr lee as
» to why mislead the readers in thinking his study he cited means the more
» minoxidil the better when that’s total BS, and he’s not emailed me back.
»
» here is the actual study he cited and purposely misinterpreted it to
» mislead people into buying “Xandrox” crap and minoxidil over 5% solutions:
» http://www.ijdvl.com/article.asp?issn=0378-6323;year=1990;volume=56;issue=3;spage=187;epage=192;aulast=kubba

Below is doctor Lee’s response as to why he posed such a question in a misleading way. Personally, his response ran around the bush but failed to address his Question and Answer issue as stated previously:

Thanks for your critique of the Q & A’s. No, I don’t advise the use of a 20%, 25% or 30% minoxidil compounds.

While it’s true that clinical observations* have shown that success with topical minoxidil in promoting hair growth is dose dependent, the increased efficacy in promoting hair growth is not directly proportional to the increases in the concentrations of minoxidil. There are diminishing returns. For example, 5% minoxidil solutions have been proven to promote hair growth and retard the hair loss process with greater efficacy than 2% minoxidil solutions, but not 2 ½ times as effectively. It’s very questionable whether or not a 20% or 25% minoxidil compound would be any more effective in treating MPB than a 15% solution.

As is true with all medications, you really need to be cautious in regards to dosage. A maxim in pharmacology is ‘the only difference between a medication and a toxin is the dosage’. In a study reported in Skin Pharmacology [Skin Pharmacol 1997;10(4):206-20] it was shown that ?minoxidil had biphasic effects on the proliferation and differentiation of normal human keratinocytes (NHK): Minoxidil stimulated NHK proliferation at micromolar doses, while antiproliferative, pro-differentiative and partially cytotoxic effects were observed with millimolar concentrations.? In other words, too much minoxidil can be counter productive in promoting hair growth.

Richard Lee, M.D.

*80% of patients who take oral minoxidil for hypertension grow hair, not only on the scalp…but all over the body


#3

I’m really interested in the success and validity of these products. Let me know if anyone has experienced any positive effects from these products.


#4

I have used his products for a year. I think they can help but the Xandorx 15% you put on at night has a very sticky feel to it. Not really sure how well it works. It can’t hurt to try it though.


#5

» “Q. Can you cite a scientific reference demonstrating that higher doses
» of topical minoxidil improve the results in the treatment of MPB?

» A. An excellent study relating dosage to results was reported in this
» article: Olsen, EA, DeLong ER, Weiner MS. Dose-response study of topical
» minoxidil in male pattern baldness. J Am Acad Dermatol. 1986;15:30-37.”
» (Dr. Lee, http://www.minoxidil.com/subpages/faqs/faq_minoxidil_12.html).
»
» Now the average reader upon reading the above Question and Answer will say
» to himself “Oh wow, it’s proven through scientific studies that 12.5% works
» better than 5%! The higher concentration of minoxidil the better the
» results”!
» What’s the point? When you research and find the article the study was
» conducted to determine the effectiveness of minoxidil UNDER 5%
» CONCENTRATION!. It was a study comparing 2%, 3%, and 5%. Ultimately 2% was
» just as good and as equal in effectiveness as 3% (more is not necessarily
» better.

Exactly! I’ve often complained about the rather smarmy way that Dr. Lee takes legitimate medical studies and then milks them for all they’re worth, trying to get people to buy his products: azelaic acid in Xandrox; ultra-high minoxidil concentrations; and topical finasteride. I think those things are (mostly) just a lot of rubbish.


#6

»
» Exactly! I’ve often complained about the rather smarmy way that Dr. Lee
» takes legitimate medical studies and then milks them for all they’re worth,
» trying to get people to buy his products: azelaic acid in Xandrox;
» ultra-high minoxidil concentrations; and topical finasteride. I think
» those things are (mostly) just a lot of rubbish.

He should just say his product works better than any other agent out there. :hungry:


#7

» Below is doctor Lee’s response as to why he posed such a question in a
» misleading way. Personally, his response ran around the bush but failed to
» address his Question and Answer issue as stated previously:
»
» Thanks for your critique of the Q & A’s. No, I don’t advise the use of a
» 20%, 25% or 30% minoxidil compounds.
»
» While it’s true that clinical observations* have shown that success with
» topical minoxidil in promoting hair growth is dose dependent, the increased
» efficacy in promoting hair growth is not directly proportional to the
» increases in the concentrations of minoxidil. There are diminishing
» returns. For example, 5% minoxidil solutions have been proven to promote
» hair growth and retard the hair loss process with greater efficacy than 2%
» minoxidil solutions, but not 2 ½ times as effectively. It’s very
» questionable whether or not a 20% or 25% minoxidil compound would be any
» more effective in treating MPB than a 15% solution.

LOL!! So the obvious inference to be drawn from his noble admission is this: don’t bother to buy someone else’s 20% or 25% minoxidil solution, buy only HIS 15% minoxidil product! :smiley:

I can’t believe how smarmy Dr. Lee is. It’s true that minoxidil is dose-dependent, but he’s very misleading about it by subtly implying that that’s the case with ALL topical vehicles. When you use only the standard type of vehicle that you find in Rogaine and similar products (alcohol, propylene glycol, and water), I don’t doubt that the results are dose-dependent on the amount of minoxidil, at least to the rather limited extent he describes above; but where Dr. Lee tears his pants is by making people assume that the same general rule also applies to his ULTRA-HIGH concentration products, like the ones that have as much as 12.5% and even 15% solutions. To get something THAT high, he has to pull a lot of chemical tricks out of his hat, and BY NO MEANS would I ever assume that such a chemical trick would work as well as (or better) than standard versions of Rogaine, which hold only about 5% or so of the drug. To make me believe otherwise, Dr. Lee is going to have to provide scientific evidence for that, not just cough-up old studies showing that 5% works a little better than 2%! :slight_smile:


#8

“It grows significantly more hair on more people than any other agent”

:hungry:


#9

» » “Q. Can you cite a scientific reference demonstrating that higher
» doses
» » of topical minoxidil improve the results in the treatment of MPB?

» » A. An excellent study relating dosage to results was reported in this
» » article: Olsen, EA, DeLong ER, Weiner MS. Dose-response study of
» topical
» » minoxidil in male pattern baldness. J Am Acad Dermatol. 1986;15:30-37.”
» » (Dr. Lee,
» http://www.minoxidil.com/subpages/faqs/faq_minoxidil_12.html).
» »
» » Now the average reader upon reading the above Question and Answer will
» say
» » to himself “Oh wow, it’s proven through scientific studies that 12.5%
» works
» » better than 5%! The higher concentration of minoxidil the better the
» » results”!
» » What’s the point? When you research and find the article the study was
» » conducted to determine the effectiveness of minoxidil UNDER 5%
» » CONCENTRATION!. It was a study comparing 2%, 3%, and 5%. Ultimately 2%
» was
» » just as good and as equal in effectiveness as 3% (more is not
» necessarily
» » better.
»
» Exactly! I’ve often complained about the rather smarmy way that Dr. Lee
» takes legitimate medical studies and then milks them for all they’re worth,
» trying to get people to buy his products: azelaic acid in Xandrox;
» ultra-high minoxidil concentrations; and topical finasteride. I think
» those things are (mostly) just a lot of rubbish.

Dude, thanks for chiming in. Hopefully your reply here will get many other reader’s attention. It’s a shame I posted this 4 months ago and just now it’s getting noticed.

I encourage guys to read what I wrote. Nothing I say is opinion based, it’s fact-based especially now that Bryan agrees.

I replied to his email, no response back. I inquired further about his azelaic acid, no response. I inquired about his topical finasteride, no response.

I’m sick and tired of doctors, forums, and members everywhere treating his word like the bible which wrongfully gives credibility to his products. These poor guys are desperate and he takes advantage of that. Shame on this dude. Only thing that separates him from your door-to-door snake oil salesman - he’s the slimiest of the snakes. Very smooth, and slick. His Q&A is smooth and BS when you carefully read them and research yourself. He’s a self-proclaimed guru.


#10

Just curious if you feel the same way about Dr. Proctor…lack of studies…etc.


#11

» Just curious if you feel the same way about Dr. Proctor…lack of
» studies…etc.

Don’t know too much about dr proctor, but I doubt he lies about studies to boost his sales.

The issue about “dr lee” was not that he didn’t have studies, but the problem was he blatantly lied about studies existing to boost his sales and tries to manipulate the bald man’s mind. Like Bryan pointed out in dr lee’s email response to me, he clearly contradicted himself in black and white.


#12

» » Just curious if you feel the same way about Dr. Proctor…lack of
» » studies…etc.
»
» Don’t know too much about dr proctor, but I doubt he lies about studies to
» boost his sales.
»
» The issue about “dr lee” was not that he didn’t have studies, but the
» problem was he blatantly lied about studies existing to boost his sales and
» tries to manipulate the bald man’s mind. Like Bryan pointed out in dr
» lee’s email response to me, he clearly contradicted himself in black and
» white.

But I’m referring to your comments about just that- not having studies…in your first post. Such as “But the problem was that there were never any studies conducted to prove it’s effectiveness nor do I see a sworm of people swearing by it.” The same could be said of Dr. P and his products.

The same goes for his ridiculous claim “It grows significantly more hair on more people than any other agent”

There just is no proof for that. Any company…Dr…can make any claims, as you’re seeing Dr. Lee do.


#13

» » » Just curious if you feel the same way about Dr. Proctor…lack of
» » » studies…etc.
» »
» » Don’t know too much about dr proctor, but I doubt he lies about studies
» to
» » boost his sales.
» »
» » The issue about “dr lee” was not that he didn’t have studies, but the
» » problem was he blatantly lied about studies existing to boost his sales
» and
» » tries to manipulate the bald man’s mind. Like Bryan pointed out in dr
» » lee’s email response to me, he clearly contradicted himself in black
» and
» » white.

»
»
» But I’m referring to your comments about just that- not having studies…in
» your first post. Such as “But the problem was that there were never any
» studies conducted to prove it’s effectiveness nor do I see a sworm of
» people swearing by it.” The same could be said of Dr. P and his products.

Bro Dr Lee was saying studies exist to back-up his claims so OF COURSE I’m going to say what you quoted me above saying. Get it? Proctor, from my understanding, never made such claims.

It’s one thing to try to make a sale through hype and sensationization, but it’s a totally different thing to “LIE” and insinuate that studies exist to back up your false claims.

Please re-read the first post of this thread. I don’t want you getting any ideas I’m knocking one doc and not another doc if they’re rocking the same boat. They’re on 2 different planets. Also read Dr. Lee’s email response to my email!! He actually contradicted himself LOL. Bryan already quoted it. And if you think I’m lying about his email, give me your email address and I’ll gladly forward you our email coresspondence. One is Bullsh*tting with words and lying about studies, the other isn’t.

It’s like my physiotherapist. He suggested I use PRP for my golfer’s elbows, and I asked if there’s any proof or study saying it works for such injuries. He said more than I can read on in one day. It’s been 2 weeks and he still hasen’t shown me a single study lol. Toco-8, by Premordial Performance is another fag. He goes around forums telling bodybuilders of the benefits of Toco-8 for their muscles and on hair loss forums he sings about the benefits about toco-8 for hair loss. When asked about studies he submits a good looking study sheet/report with stats and everything. When asked about who did the study and where, he sais he did it in his lab LMAO. He also goes as far as saying another one of his products is so strong that the FDA sais it has steroids in it and gave him up to a certain date to stop selling and making the product. I asked for them to post the fda letter and upon reading and researching it it turned out bogus. That’s super illegal. And when I told him I’m going to report him I got banned from the forum because he was a sponsor there. Point is, I’m tired of these SNAKESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. and dr. lee is a SNAKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

But I don’t want this to turn into a dr. proctor thrad.

» The same goes for his ridiculous claim “It grows significantly more hair
» on more people than any other agent”
»
» There just is no proof for that. Any company…Dr…can make any claims, as
» you’re seeing Dr. Lee do.


#14

“The same could be said of Dr. P and his products” Yep for Brian who needs to see studys to decide if anything can work( and sure we all like to see studys) where are all the ones on Dr. P’s products. ???


#15

Your first two paragraphs are of you coming across the products and thinking- where are the studies etc. Just as with Proctor…claims are being made- both should be showing proof for those claims. That’s all I’m referring to. I understand your beef with him following your reading up on it and questioning him/emailing him.

On the Toco product…I don’t know what to think. The studies do seem to come from those making/selling it. It’s strange LEF would pick up on it too…but then again, they’re still selling Proctor’s stuff :smiley:

BTW…the study you linked to(which actually seems to be an article based on it) doesn’t seem to be the correct one(?) The one Dr. Lee has listed is 1986…yours is 1990. Maybe I’m missing something. Here’s an abstract of one I came across when doing a search: “Fifty-eight men with Hamilton scale type III vertex or type IV male pattern baldness were studied to determine the dose-response activity of low concentrations of topical minoxidil in promoting hair growth. The patients were treated with topical minoxidil at doses of 0.01%, 0.1%, 1%, or 2% or placebo in a randomized double-blind design for 6 months. At the end of 6 months, patients using 0.1%, 1%, and 2% topical minoxidil solutions showed a significantly greater difference in the mean increase of nonvellus hair growth in comparison with those using 0.01% minoxidil or placebo. There was a clear dose-response correlation for the increase of nonvellus hairs in the 0.1 %, 1%, and 2% minoxidil treatment groups. There was a statistically significant difference in patient’s self-evaluation of overall hair growth and degree. of decreased hair shedding in the 1% and 2% minoxidil groups when compared with the other study groups. From this study we conclude that significant increases in nonvellus hair counts occur with 0.1% and greater doses of minoxidil. However, only in patients treated with the 1% and 2% solutions of minoxidil was there clinically perceptible hair growth.”

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0190962287700863

Another: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3722507

“Eighty-nine healthy men with male pattern baldness completed a 6-month double-blind, placebo-controlled study of 0.01%, 0.1%, 1%, and 2% topical minoxidil. Subjects on 2% topical minoxidil had a statistically significant increase in mean total target area hair count over baseline compared to the placebo, 0.01%, and 0.1% topical minoxidil groups (p = 0.04). Changes from baseline were more impressive with the 2% topical minoxidil group but not significantly different from the 1% topical minoxidil group in all parameters of objective response to treatment. The investigator, however, rated more subjects as having at least a moderate cosmetic response to treatment in the 2% versus 1% topical minoxidil treatment group. These results indicate that 1% topical minoxidil is the lowest effective concentration of topical minoxidil for male pattern baldness of those tested. Because of the more impressive changes in hair counts and the cosmetic preference for the 2% versus 1% topical minoxidil, 2% topical minoxidil may be the standard preferred treatment for male pattern baldness.”


#16

If it were some miracle formula you would have read that Dr. Lee was a millionaire on the Wall Street Journal. Take these products for what they are worth. They MAY help some people but the studies leave a lot to be desired.


#17

» “The same could be said of Dr. P and his products” Yep for Brian who needs
» to see studys to decide if anything can work( and sure we all like to see
» studys) where are all the ones on Dr. P’s products.
» ???

You act as if Bryan is the only one that needs to see studies to decide if anything works. I feel bad for those who run with things and could care less if there were studies to prove the effectiveness of he were running with; let alone side effects.

But you guys are misinterpreting my whole point here.


#18

» If it were some miracle formula you would have read that Dr. Lee was a
» millionaire on the Wall Street Journal. Take these products for what they
» are worth. They MAY help some people but the studies leave a lot to be
» desired.

Really? What studies are you referring to? I hope not the ones dr. lee was refering to. because I just proved they were BS.


#19

» Your first two paragraphs are of you coming across the products and
» thinking- where are the studies etc. Just as with Proctor…claims are being
» made- both should be showing proof for those claims. That’s all I’m
» referring to. I understand your beef with him following your reading up on
» it and questioning him/emailing him.

No. You’re taking what I was saying out of context Jacob. I should have been more clearer.

» On the Toco product…I don’t know what to think. The studies do seem to
» come from those making/selling it. It’s strange LEF would pick up on it
» too…but then again, they’re still selling Proctor’s stuff :smiley:
»
» BTW…the study you linked to(which actually seems to be an article based
» on it) doesn’t seem to be the correct one(?) The one Dr. Lee has listed is
» 1986…yours is 1990. Maybe I’m missing something. Here’s an abstract of
» one I came across when doing a search: “Fifty-eight men with Hamilton
» scale type III vertex or type IV male pattern baldness were studied to
» determine the dose-response activity of low concentrations of topical
» minoxidil in promoting hair growth. The patients were treated with topical
» minoxidil at doses of 0.01%, 0.1%, 1%, or 2% or placebo in a randomized
» double-blind design for 6 months. At the end of 6 months, patients using
» 0.1%, 1%, and 2% topical minoxidil solutions showed a significantly greater
» difference in the mean increase of nonvellus hair growth in comparison with
» those using 0.01% minoxidil or placebo. There was a clear dose-response
» correlation for the increase of nonvellus hairs in the 0.1 %, 1%, and 2%
» minoxidil treatment groups. There was a statistically significant
» difference in patient’s self-evaluation of overall hair growth and degree.
» of decreased hair shedding in the 1% and 2% minoxidil groups when compared
» with the other study groups. From this study we conclude that significant
» increases in nonvellus hair counts occur with 0.1% and greater doses of
» minoxidil. However, only in patients treated with the 1% and 2% solutions
» of minoxidil was there clinically perceptible hair growth.”
»
» http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0190962287700863
»
» Another: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3722507
»
» “Eighty-nine healthy men with male pattern baldness completed a 6-month
» double-blind, placebo-controlled study of 0.01%, 0.1%, 1%, and 2% topical
» minoxidil. Subjects on 2% topical minoxidil had a statistically significant
» increase in mean total target area hair count over baseline compared to the
» placebo, 0.01%, and 0.1% topical minoxidil groups (p = 0.04). Changes from
» baseline were more impressive with the 2% topical minoxidil group but not
» significantly different from the 1% topical minoxidil group in all
» parameters of objective response to treatment. The investigator, however,
» rated more subjects as having at least a moderate cosmetic response to
» treatment in the 2% versus 1% topical minoxidil treatment group. These
» results indicate that 1% topical minoxidil is the lowest effective
» concentration of topical minoxidil for male pattern baldness of those
» tested. Because of the more impressive changes in hair counts and the
» cosmetic preference for the 2% versus 1% topical minoxidil, 2% topical
» minoxidil may be the standard preferred treatment for male pattern
» baldness.”

Do you se any mention in there of “the higher concentration of minoxidil the better results”? or “10%, 12%, 15% provide better results”? No.


#20

No, I did not take them out of context.

And no, the studies did not mention those %'s. They do talk about different concentrations/%'s though, which is what Dr. Lee was referring to. I still don’t get why you posted the article of the study…which didn’t seem to be the one Dr. Lee even mentioned.

I am not a fan of Dr. Lee btw(although he does have a very nice website these days…and those dab-o-matics look cool to use for topicals). I don’t and never will even use minox, either :wink: