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Day 7...Side Effects


#1

I had an uncomfortable side effect last night in bed. Abdominal cramps and tightness and I almost vomited. I’m assuming these effects came from the oral roxithromycin (as they’re listed as possible side effects) The feeling passed within one hour and I was able to go back to sleep. I’ve felt fine today and intend to continue the oral administration (as well as the topical).
The vellus hair is definitely returning and I’ve got one or two hairs that may be terminal poking through already. I’m surprised at this as it’s too early for new follicles at only 5 days post wounding and the existing hairs shouldn’t be back yet after the depilation. But they must be existing ones nevertheless.
Skin is very dry and looking closely it looks a bit wrinkly signifying that it will eventually peel. Some scabbing here and there but doesn’t look anywhere near as bad as the last wounding at this point.
As ever, I’ll keep you apprised.


#2

» I had an uncomfortable side effect last night in bed. Abdominal cramps and
» tightness and I almost vomited. I’m assuming these effects came from the
» oral roxithromycin (as they’re listed as possible side effects) The
» feeling passed within one hour and I was able to go back to sleep. I’ve
» felt fine today and intend to continue the oral administration (as well as
» the topical).
» The vellus hair is definitely returning and I’ve got one or two hairs that
» may be terminal poking through already. I’m surprised at this as it’s too
» early for new follicles at only 5 days post wounding and the existing hairs
» shouldn’t be back yet after the depilation. But they must be existing ones
» nevertheless.
» Skin is very dry and looking closely it looks a bit wrinkly signifying
» that it will eventually peel. Some scabbing here and there but doesn’t look
» anywhere near as bad as the last wounding at this point.
» As ever, I’ll keep you apprised.

Baccy, your doing an amazing thing in the name of science for all of us here…even if it doesnt work, which we all have our fingers crossed that it does, youve done more for this site than any mind numbing mouse study ive come across since joining this forum in 2004.


#3

»
» Baccy, your doing an amazing thing in the name of science for all of us
» here…even if it doesnt work, which we all have our fingers crossed that it
» does, youve done more for this site than any mind numbing mouse study ive
» come across since joining this forum in 2004.

Don’t kid yourself that I’m a saint doing good for mankind. :slight_smile: I’m in this to cure 27 years of worry, discontent, dissatisfaction and depression. For me.
I’ll just keep you guys informed but my motives are primarily entirely selfish and I make no apologies for saying so.
I find it incredible that the guys in white coats didn’t address this problem when the wounding issue was discovered over 50 years ago. There’s that much corruption and misinformation even in the medical fields that sometimes you just don’t know what to believe.
We’ve been thrown a bone and I’m going to chew on it.


#4

I’m going to repeat my comments from your day 6 post:

I never heard of Roxithromycin before today. I did some poking around and the stuff was apparently being trialed for hairloss ( http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00197379?term=Roxithromycin&rank=2 )
I wonder what happened?


#5

» I had an uncomfortable side effect last night in bed. Abdominal cramps and
» tightness and I almost vomited. I’m assuming these effects came from the
» oral roxithromycin (as they’re listed as possible side effects) The
» feeling passed within one hour and I was able to go back to sleep. I’ve
» felt fine today and intend to continue the oral administration (as well as
» the topical).
» The vellus hair is definitely returning and I’ve got one or two hairs that
» may be terminal poking through already. I’m surprised at this as it’s too
» early for new follicles at only 5 days post wounding and the existing hairs
» shouldn’t be back yet after the depilation. But they must be existing ones
» nevertheless.
» Skin is very dry and looking closely it looks a bit wrinkly signifying
» that it will eventually peel. Some scabbing here and there but doesn’t look
» anywhere near as bad as the last wounding at this point.
» As ever, I’ll keep you apprised.

In that case, good for you…and everyone else on this forum too. I appreciate that you are willing to share your progress for everyone else on this forum to follow.


#6

» I’m going to repeat my comments from your day 6 post:
»
» I never heard of Roxithromycin before today. I did some poking around and
» the stuff was apparently being trialed for hairloss (
» http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00197379?term=Roxithromycin&rank=2
» )
» I wonder what happened?

I sent an email to the doctor heading the research, back in 2006, but never got a response.


#7

lipoxidil.com sold it as a topical a couple of years ago, I tried it and it did nothing. » I’m going to repeat my comments from your day 6 post: » » I never heard of Roxithromycin before today. I did some poking around and » the stuff was apparently being trialed for hairloss ( » http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00197379?term=Roxithromycin&rank=2 » ) » I wonder what happened?


#8

hi everyone!
Is there someone else, who tried follica`s method at home, and what are the results?


#9

» hi everyone!
» Is there someone else, who tried follica`s method at home, and what are
» the results?

not on a large scale, but…

I’ve tried, on a very much smaller scale, something similar to Baccy’s previous formulation (with milk thistle and without the three quercetin days). WhatI’ve mostly learned from this at this point is how difficult it is to be
sure of results. :slight_smile:

I’m pretty sure there are some results but a good macro digicam would be needed for before/after pics to really get an idea of exactly how effective this is. I find a handheld 10X mirror is quite useful for direct observation
when used with a normal flat mirror.

On one site (about 6 cm^2 on crown), used light sanding with 300 grade
sandpaper. I think this was a little excessive because at the center of the
site a 2 cm^2 scab formed from about days 3-7 (didn’t intend for this
to happen). I think I can see about 15-20 hairs (which have some
pigmentation and are thicker than the vellus hairs which were there
before), after about 3 weeks. I would not class these as terminal hairs
at this point, just obviously thicker than anything that was there
before. The results don’t appear to be limited to the area in which
scabbing actually occurred.

On a second site, about 2 cm^2 (on crown), used a 30 gauge lancet at at
about 1.5 mm depth about 300 times within the area. After same treatment for
3 weeks, there are quite definitely about 8 hairs thicker and more
pigmented than the vellus hairs in the area than existed before (again
I wouldn’t class these as terminal hairs at this point, just something
more significant than what was there before). The hairs are not as
thick as most of the ones in the sanding case, but are definitely not
small or unpigmented like the vellus hairs which were there before.

Whether or not the topical really influenced the outcome in either case,
I can’t tell for sure (have no control data). Did not use pre-depilation
in either case. I’m also wondering how the results will progress with time.

Also began using propecia (1 mg finasteride) almost exactly one month
ago so not sure how much that’s influenced results. It does not appear
to have produced results like this on the rest of the scalp at this
point.

It will be interesting to see if pre-depilation has a significant
effect. This is all very interesting indeed, but not particularly useful,
of course, unless the results can be increased by 1-2 orders of magnitude.
I’m guessing anything exceeding about 30 terminal hairs per cm^2 would
be a significant achievement, and I’ve not observed anything like that.

It’s nice to know that people are posting information, if there’s something
really useful to be understood we may actually be able to figure it out
given some time and thought.

It does seem that there is something interesting here, though…


#10

» I’m going to repeat my comments from your day 6 post:
»
» I never heard of Roxithromycin before today. I did some poking around and
» the stuff was apparently being trialed for hairloss (
» http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00197379?term=Roxithromycin&rank=2
» )
» I wonder what happened?

We’ll probably never know.
There was a drug that was ready for release in 2007 called Promel which basically cures grey hair. The manufacturers were Loreal whom I’m sure you have all heard of. I contacted them a couple of weeks ago and asked about their progress and they said they do not make any such drug. They said that I had been given ‘misinformation’ and that they’d been doing studies that would EVENTUALLY lead to a drug that cures grey hair. It was all very mysterious.
There’s payoffs and backhanders everywhere. It’s ALL about money.


#11

Yeh, Coffee. All we really have at the moment is proof of concept. The only reason that I could tell it worked is because I had ZERO hair before. For somebody who is just thinning or receding, results would be harder to spot.
But I’m hoping that we can get some improvement in the yield. This procedure works and we know it works. For the commercial aspect of this to strangely die a death as other procedures have in the past, would not stop a cure for hairloss getting out there. The public knowledge of that may render any payoffs/buyouts impotent.


#12

baccy you think a simple dermabrasion will grow some hair? without any type of meds


#13

» baccy you think a simple dermabrasion will grow some hair? without any type
» of meds

It has worked on me a couple times.

Nothing “cosmetically significant,” just a bunch of thin wispy hairs that only show up when looking hard at them in a mirror.

But if you repeated the procedure a bunch of times on the same spot, I suspect the results would add up over time.

Dermabrasion isn’t deep enough to kill existing follicles, only affect them. So I suspect that there is probably at least some amount of rejuvenation at work. (Heck, a lot of HT results may be slightly improved from the scalp damage involved in placing the incoming grafts.)


#14

» » baccy you think a simple dermabrasion will grow some hair? without any
» type
» » of meds
»
» It has worked on me a couple times.
»
» Nothing “cosmetically significant,” just a bunch of thin wispy hairs that
» only show up when looking hard at them in a mirror.
»
»
» But if you repeated the procedure a bunch of times on the same spot, I
» suspect the results would add up over time.
»
» Dermabrasion isn’t deep enough to kill existing follicles, only affect
» them. So I suspect that there is probably at least some amount of
» rejuvenation at work. (Heck, a lot of HT results may be slightly improved
» from the scalp damage involved in placing the incoming grafts.)

thank you, I was just curious, so I have wounded a little size of bald area (about 1cmsquare) on my head with sandpaper, I wanna see if something will grow :stuck_out_tongue: even a single hair, just for curiosity :slight_smile:


#15

Hi,

Baccy, looking at the pattern of “regrowth” you had it seems like you having some kind of trouble at the topical absorption…it seems like it does not stay enough on the skin until it gets absorbed…I know you think this is because of the glue effect of your ex-hair system…but what about regions like the frontal hairline ??

Anyway I was reading something about the famous essential oils scottish study and I found out the following “researchers in the Scottish study wrapped patients’ heads in towels after each application to allow the warmth from the towel to assist the oils in penetrating the scalp”

I dont know if you’ve already passed this stage but I hope it to be of some use for everybody in here.

Best Regards.


#16

Baccy, what of your day 8 results? haha


#17

»
» not on a large scale, but…
»
» I’ve tried, on a very much smaller scale, something similar to Baccy’s
» previous formulation (with milk thistle and without the three quercetin
» days). WhatI’ve mostly learned from this at this point is how difficult it
» is to be sure of results. :slight_smile:
»

Interesting post, Coffee! I’m not going to quote it all to avoid cluttering up the board. But it’s really nice to see that there are more people who are trying Follica DYI experiments with a fairly scientific approach!

I’m really hoping someone (who? me?) will duplicate Baccy’s experiment to the letter and see if it is repeatable. And I mean every part of it: the quercetin, lithium, caffeine, dmso, alpha lipoic acid cream twice daily, the switch to milk-thistle, emu oil, the minox, caffeine, lithium and copper peptides and of course the same timing. It would be really important verify that Baccy’s results are not a one-time occurrence. Who knows, maybe the “quercetin mistake” turns out to be an important factor?

» I’m pretty sure there are some results but a good macro digicam would be
» needed for before/after pics to really get an idea of exactly how effective
» this is. I find a handheld 10X mirror is quite useful for direct
» observation
» when used with a normal flat mirror.

Yes, I think a decent camera is necessary to be able to properly gauge the results. It shouldn’t be that difficult to make some sort of simple rig so that the camera is placed in the exact same position every time and photographs the same spot/angle on the head. Actually a really big piece of paper or several smaller papers taped together and a pen could do the trick: Put the paper on a table and place the camera at one end of it. Make a mark on the paper where the camera is. Place your head on the other end of the paper with your scalp facing the camera. Take some shots with your head at different positions using the camera auto timer, noting where your head is placed. When you find a good position, make a mark on the paper of where your head should go.

Preferably, the same lighting should be used between shots and the hair length and style should be the same, too.

» On one site (about 6 cm^2 on crown), used light sanding with 300 grade
» sandpaper…

Ultimately, it would be really interesting to make a trial with, say, 16 small areas on the scalp. Each area should be at least a few square centimeters and a protocol should be kept of each area.

A slight variation of the procedure is carried out in the different “squares”: different abrasion depths, varying time before inhibition, different topicals etc. It would be advisable to carry out each variation in two different places to account for varying growth propensity across the scalp. A 4x4 pattern would thus allow for 8 variations with each variation in two places.

To avoid having to make lasting marks on the head to indicate the different regions, a simple stencil, like a net, could be deviced. It could use permanent facial features, such as the nose and ears, as reference points or “anchors”. That way, the stencil could be placed in the same spot for each treatment update. You would then simply apply the topicals in the squares of the stencil according to the protocol.

» On a second site, about 2 cm^2 (on crown), used a 30 gauge lancet at at
» about 1.5 mm depth about 300 times within the area.

Did you just make a whole bunch of pricks or did you cut away any larger pieces of skin? AFAIK the successful experiments in mice and in vitro indicated that one needed to disrupt a continous area of at least a few square centimeters or so.

» It does seem that there is something interesting here, though…

Hopefully, yes! Thanks for sharing your information!


#18

» Baccy, what of your day 8 results? haha

My computer’s out of action at the moment but I will post an update after an XP reinstall, probably on Friday. I can’t really do it from work.


#19

» I’m really hoping someone (who? me?) will duplicate Baccy’s experiment to
» the letter and see if it is repeatable. And I mean every part of it: the
» quercetin, lithium, caffeine, dmso, alpha lipoic acid cream twice daily,
» the switch to milk-thistle, emu oil, the minox, caffeine, lithium and
» copper peptides and of course the same timing. It would be really important
» verify that Baccy’s results are not a one-time occurrence. Who knows, maybe
» the “quercetin mistake” turns out to be an important factor?

Agreed, it seems that the “quercetin mistake” should be kept in mind, it seems as if the opinions on timing which have been discussed are correct, there could be some importance to that. I guess only more data would tell for sure.

» Yes, I think a decent camera is necessary to be able to properly gauge the
» results. It shouldn’t be that difficult to make some sort of simple rig so
» that the camera is placed in the exact same position every time and
» photographs the same spot/angle on the head. Actually a really big piece of
» paper or several smaller papers taped together and a pen could do the
» trick: Put the paper on a table and place the camera at one end of it. Make
» a mark on the paper where the camera is. Place your head on the other end
» of the paper with your scalp facing the camera. Take some shots with your
» head at different positions using the camera auto timer, noting where your
» head is placed. When you find a good position, make a mark on the paper of
» where your head should go.

These are some interesting ideas indeed. When I did the sanding experiment, it hadn’t yet occurred to me that later it would be very important to be able to determine the exact location later. With the lancet experiment, I actually drew a bit of a map at the start which allowed the location to be precisely identified in relation to existing hairs. It appears that in some commercial research that’s been documented on the web, some type of tatoo dye spot was used to identify the center of a region for this purpose. This doesn’t seem to appealing or convenient for a small experiment, but these ideas you mentioned might be more useful.

» Did you just make a whole bunch of pricks or did you cut away any larger
» pieces of skin? AFAIK the successful experiments in mice and in vitro
» indicated that one needed to disrupt a continous area of at least a few
» square centimeters or so.

I just made a whole bunch of individual pricks. The density was about 300 per 2 cm^2. It appears that the better results tended to appear at the outer edge of the region in this case.

If I get a chance to try again, I’ll probably depilate a small region (maybe 5 cm^2) of vellus hairs and try a small sanding experiment again, as sanding appears to have produced a much better effect. I’ll probably try to devise some type of tool which can be used for accurately doing this. I will attempt to not completely breach the stratum corneum in any part of the aree, since it appears that is not necessary for creating some results (if my judgement of the previous sanding experiment is correct) and it appears as if doing so creates a much more serious and visible wound (it appears that this is the point at which scabbing will occur).

I had hoped that the lancet results would be better, since it appears to be easy to do this without more than one day of visibility, and it seems obviously possible to influence the region down through the complete epidermal layer without producing much bleeding or long-visible redness (although a depth slightly less than 1.5 mm might be better for this). I’m guessing that doing this too densely would result in a worse wound, so probably caution should be used there–this did not occur with 300 30 gauge pricks at 1.5 mm, though. I did notice some bleeding though, so 1.5 mm is probably slightly too deep to avoid getting into the dermis, where it appears that most of the capillaries reside. I’m guessing that this is something to be avoided and it seems like wounding capillaries may be not be a good thing in the long run. I’m not an expert on anatomy, so someone who is might have some better suggestions on what might be some good approaches and what to avoid w/respect to creating wounds which do not do any permanent damage.

There seem to be a lot of possible permutations. Just to make a list, here are some things I could think of:

-sanding vs. needling vs. other dermabrasion techniques or “methods of disruption”
-range of sanding depth, depth or density of needling, or intensity or depth of other disruption
-ingredients and concentrations of topicals, carriers used in topicals
-timing of topicals
-administration of treatment through other than topical methods
-predepilation or not or other “prestimulation” which seems to be a vague term used in some of the Intercytex research which I’m wondering about
-actual size of wounded area
-variations in optimal technique which might result from the exact current state of the treated region or from specific genetics or age of subject

It seems easy to understand why Follica might be interested in laser dermabrasion, since if there are a lot of variations which can be identified with regards to depth/intensity of wounding, it might be a lot easier to automate and implement this process if one knew all of the functions which influenced the optimal results for an individual patient, and to individualize treatments more quickly and accurately without extensive training of operators.

Since I’m not interested in trying to use prescription ingredients or other things which do not appear fairly safe and legally obtainable as topicals, I’m somewhat limited in things I can try. This is one reason why the milk-thistle was appealing. Quercetin also appears to be a common supplement (but maybe not immediately interesting at this point, given the discussion history). Some lithium compounds and Baccy’s tannic acid formulation seem doable within these constraints as well (given good precautions on the concentrations).

It seems that there is justification for testing some variations with the milk-thistle, given that it appears that this might be producing some results.


#20

» But I’m hoping that we can get some improvement in the yield. This
» procedure works and we know it works. For the commercial aspect of this to
» strangely die a death as other procedures have in the past, would not stop
» a cure for hairloss getting out there. The public knowledge of that may
» render any payoffs/buyouts impotent.

Totally agreed. I’m hoping that if a highly effective procedure is formulated that companies who might actually be interested selling the end product/service will realize that there are probably a whole lot more people out there who would be willing to go for this than would be willing to use existing surgical treatments, and probably even at a similar expense if it can be made to work effectively and reliably.