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Day 12...10 Days Post Wounding


#1

Skin is peeling all over the top of the scalp. Lots of vellus hair but nothing that I can say is new. Some terminal hair poking through but they look like existing hairs.
For the last 2 days I’ve been taking milk thistle extract orally to supplement the EGF inhibition (in theory). Some of our theories suggest that the window for the meds
is when the crusts are falling off so I shall extend the window to cover that. I will continue with the meds for another 8 to 10 days. On the side effects front, you’ve got
the usuals. Headaches, nauseau and I don’t know if it’s related or not but I’ve developed a painful toothache in one of my molars. I had a dental check 2 weeks ago
with no problems and I can’t really go to the dentist at the moment with my head in a peeling state. It may be related or it may not. I can’t find any reference to it being
a side effect.
I’ll keep you updated.


#2

» Skin is peeling all over the top of the scalp. Lots of vellus hair but
» nothing that I can say is new. Some terminal hair poking through but they
» look like existing hairs.
» For the last 2 days I’ve been taking milk thistle extract orally to
» supplement the EGF inhibition (in theory). Some of our theories suggest
» that the window for the meds
» is when the crusts are falling off so I shall extend the window to cover
» that. I will continue with the meds for another 8 to 10 days. On the side
» effects front, you’ve got
» the usuals. Headaches, nauseau and I don’t know if it’s related or not but
» I’ve developed a painful toothache in one of my molars. I had a dental
» check 2 weeks ago
» with no problems and I can’t really go to the dentist at the moment with
» my head in a peeling state. It may be related or it may not. I can’t find
» any reference to it being
» a side effect.
» I’ll keep you updated.

thanks for update ! good work :stuck_out_tongue:


#3

Thanks Baccy, I appreciate it very much!! I hope you will get some nice results. Thanks again.


#4

» the usuals. Headaches, nauseau and I don’t know if it’s related or not but
» I’ve developed a painful toothache in one of my molars.

Did you check for hair on your molar? :smiley:

Seriously though, when did you start to notice terminal hair after the first wounding?


#5

Thanks for sharing your progress. Please keep your health at the highest priority, and good luck. The results of your latest testing will be very interesting.

At what point would you expect to have some initial idea of what the results will be?

When I tried my last test, this seemed to occur after a couple of weeks, but now it’s been about a month and things still seem to be improving. Frankly, I’m having some trouble believing my eyes at what I’m seeing in the small-scale sanding test I did. Not to give the impression that it would give ideal results in one treatment, but there are definitely some results to this, and the question at this point seems to be “how effective can the process become, with the correct modifications?” One thing that seems amazing is that the hairs don’t start out as thin vellus hairs, they get thicker than that right from the start. Whether the hairs will develop to the same thickness as terminal hairs or even continue to grow as they are, I obviously can’t say at this point. Next time I’ll probably repeat a very similar test (using milk thistle as EGFr inhibitor) in a different area with pre-depilation. Won’t have the option of trying this until possibly next week, though.

If I could figure out a more unobtrusive method to test I’d probably go for it. The results of needling with the milk thistle formulation were not nearly as impressive as sanding, but I’m wondering if much more dense needling at a much shallower depth might be effective at coming close to the sanding results, say 1/4 to 1/3 mm at perhaps thousands of channels per cm^2? just trying to think about the options…

By the way, upon close inspection of the progress, I’ve gotten the impression that possibly the follicles are starting out very close to the surface and then migrating deeper over time… It’s really hard to be sure just by observing with the eyes but that seems to me to be what’s happening. Have you also had this impression?


#6

I can’t wait to see Baccy’s results in a month or two. I have a good feeling about this. :slight_smile:


#7

baccy, are you eating tomoates, garlic etc…It’s a very natural, cheap & safe way to boost your lithium intake. I would strongly advise you to do so since your skin is peeling now and it seems like a good time to boost lithium intake.

» By the way, upon close inspection of the progress, I’ve gotten the
» impression that possibly the follicles are starting out very close to the
» surface and then migrating deeper over time…

hair follicle DO start at the surface and then as they get larger, they get deeper - It’s sort of like standard operating procedure for folicles.


#8

» hair follicle DO start at the surface and then as they get larger, they
» get deeper - It’s sort of like standard operating procedure for folicles.

Absolutely.

The image you showed is of an existing, cycling hair follicle. Here’s an image of how hair follicles get created in fetal skin. Please notice a couple of things: 1) As above, follicles are initially created very close to the surface, then migrate deeper, 2) The epidermis is intact when follicles are created (this gets back to the debate on when to inhibit EGF – the embryonic window is not at the point of wounding, it’s after re-epithelialization is complete, which is N days after wounding…more on this later, but the point is, hair follicles come second, not before or simultaneous with the creation of the epidermis.)


#9

» The image you showed is of an existing, cycling hair follicle. Here’s an
» image of how hair follicles get created in fetal skin. Please notice a
» couple of things: 1) As above, follicles are initially created very close
» to the surface, then migrate deeper, 2) The epidermis is intact when
» follicles are created (this gets back to the debate on when to inhibit EGF
» – the embryonic window is not at the point of wounding, it’s after
» re-epithelialization is complete, which is N days after wounding…more on
» this later, but the point is, hair follicles come second, not before or
» simultaneous with the creation of the epidermis.)

Another crucial thing we need to work on is restoring scalp health. I believe it would be hard for a follicle to push downwards into a scalp that has thinned out due to baldness. Hence, a follicle maybe created but will only produce minitaurized hair because it didn’t get a chance to bury itself into the skin & establish necessary blood supply.

I’m really stumped by this issue…has anyone got any ideas? I was thinking about frequent (once a week) gentle abrasions and continous application of Folligen - not sure if it would work though.


#10

» » The image you showed is of an existing, cycling hair follicle. Here’s an
» » image of how hair follicles get created in fetal skin. Please notice a
» » couple of things: 1) As above, follicles are initially created very
» close
» » to the surface, then migrate deeper, 2) The epidermis is intact when
» » follicles are created (this gets back to the debate on when to inhibit
» EGF
» » – the embryonic window is not at the point of wounding, it’s after
» » re-epithelialization is complete, which is N days after wounding…more
» on
» » this later, but the point is, hair follicles come second, not before or
» » simultaneous with the creation of the epidermis.)
»
»
» Another crucial thing we need to work on is restoring scalp health. I
» believe it would be hard for a follicle to push downwards into a scalp that
» has thinned out due to baldness. Hence, a follicle maybe created but will
» only produce minitaurized hair because it didn’t get a chance to bury
» itself into the skin & establish necessary blood supply.
»

I think that exercises similar to what hasson & wong advocate before their surgeries should be enough to increase elasticity of your scalp skin
» I’m really stumped by this issue…has anyone got any ideas? I was
» thinking about frequent (once a week) gentle abrasions and continous
» application of Folligen - not sure if it would work though.


#11

»»
» By the way, upon close inspection of the progress, I’ve gotten the
» impression that possibly the follicles are starting out very close to the
» surface and then migrating deeper over time… It’s really hard to be sure
» just by observing with the eyes but that seems to me to be what’s
» happening. Have you also had this impression?

Results when they come certainly seem to be fast and what you say ties in with the diagrams I’ve seen of follicle formation.


#12

Baccy, have you started to think of what kind of haircut or hair style you’re going to get?? :stuck_out_tongue:


#13

» Baccy, have you started to think of what kind of haircut or hair style
» you’re going to get?? :stuck_out_tongue:

:slight_smile: Yeh. I wish!

But of all haircuts I would like a simple crop, certainly no longer than a half inch. It will suit me better. I also don’t want a really low hairline; I want to maintain a mature male hairline which means a certain amount of recession. I also wouldn’t like it to be too dense, I don’t mind scalp show-through if it’s uniform.


#14

» If I could figure out a more unobtrusive method to test I’d probably go
» for it.

Coffee, I accidentally shaved my head using the 0mm setting (I usually have it at about 3 mm), so I decided to do some simple abrasion tests while the hair was that short. The intention was not to grow hair, but just make see the effects of abrasion on the scalp. I still have lots of hair so my goal is to see what can be done in that type of situation, i.e. at what point will hair start falling out from the abrasion alone. I would naturally like to find out if the procedure can be successful without having to remove too much existing hair.

As an initial experiment I used a rough body peeling scrub containing AHA (concentration unknown) and one of those special gloves made for dermabrasion. I scrubbed hard for a few minutes, and let the lotion sit for a few minutes more to let the AHA do its job. The scalp was slightly red. When I subsequently applied copper peptides (Folligen) it stung a bit, but not too much.

The next day, you couldn’t notice anything: no redness, no soar scalp, no hair falling out. Basically, it was as if nothing had happened. My impression from that simple experiment is that much more aggressive dermabrasion can be done witout loosing hair and is probably needed to get any results from the Follica DYI procedure.

Do you mind telling me the how much hair you have and if you have any other experience from dermabrasion of the scalp other than what you wrote a few days ago in that other post? I already know Baccy was completely bald. I’m basically trying to get a basic understanding of how much abuse the scalp can take without excessive shedding.

/p


#15

» » Baccy, have you started to think of what kind of haircut or hair style
» » you’re going to get?? :stuck_out_tongue:
»
» :slight_smile: Yeh. I wish!
»
» But of all haircuts I would like a simple crop, certainly no longer than a
» half inch. It will suit me better. I also don’t want a really low hairline;
» I want to maintain a mature male hairline which means a certain amount of
» recession. I also wouldn’t like it to be too dense, I don’t mind scalp
» show-through if it’s uniform.

Yeah, I don’t know why guys want to have an adolescent-like hairline. Sometimes I see pictures of guys who had a hair transplant because their hairline is not in the same place as it was when they were 15. Once I have my hair back, I don’t even want to think about hair anymore…so I’m gonna buzz mine pretty short. I’ve spent way too much of my life already worrying about hair - and I’m only 24.

btw, how’s the noggin looking today Baccy?


#16

» » The image you showed is of an existing, cycling hair follicle. Here’s an
» » image of how hair follicles get created in fetal skin. Please notice a
» » couple of things: 1) As above, follicles are initially created very
» close
» » to the surface, then migrate deeper, 2) The epidermis is intact when
» » follicles are created (this gets back to the debate on when to inhibit
» EGF
» » – the embryonic window is not at the point of wounding, it’s after
» » re-epithelialization is complete, which is N days after wounding…more
» on
» » this later, but the point is, hair follicles come second, not before or
» » simultaneous with the creation of the epidermis.)
»
»
» Another crucial thing we need to work on is restoring scalp health. I
» believe it would be hard for a follicle to push downwards into a scalp that
» has thinned out due to baldness. Hence, a follicle maybe created but will
» only produce minitaurized hair because it didn’t get a chance to bury
» itself into the skin & establish necessary blood supply.
»
» I’m really stumped by this issue…has anyone got any ideas? I was
» thinking about frequent (once a week) gentle abrasions and continous
» application of Folligen - not sure if it would work though.

I made a trial , Topical application of Olive oil over my scalp daily…Now I’ve that elastic effect and that itching is History…Also as you are considering peptides…be advised that Aloe Vera has some natural very STRONG skin growth factor…However I’ve never tried them in conjunction


#17

Here’s another good image of what happens in the embryo. This is the process that Follica hopes to replicate.

Two important things:

  1. The dermis and epidermis form first. Hair follicles form second. The order is sequential, not concurrent.

  2. The initiation of a hair follicle depends on complex interactions between the epidermis and the dermis.

I mention this because it gets back to the debate on when the ‘embryonic window’ opens. If you’ve just removed the epidermis (via sandpaper, chemical peels, dermabrasion procedures, etc.) how do you reckon hair follicles are going to be created? That is to say, if the creation of hair follicles depends on the epidermis, and you’ve just nuked the epidermis, you are obviously not going to be creating hair follicles at that point.

So, there’s no point in mucking with the EGF pathway immediately after wounding, since follicles are not even eligible to be formed at that point. Ideally, you would wait until the epidermis has been regenerated to a near-complete state. When that happens (that is, re-epithelialization has taken place), then the epidermis is ready to cross-talk with the dermis to form hair follicles. It’s at this point that you want to intervene.

Having said all this, we still don’t know what happens if you start early in humans. In mice, enhancing WNT early doesn’t seem to be a problem (other than the fact that follicles will lack pigment.) Is the same true of EGF? I wish I knew. Although it’s pointless to start early, one reason you might want to start a little early is to ensure that you don’t miss the window.


#18

» Here’s another good image of what happens in the embryo. This is the
» process that Follica hopes to replicate.
»
» Two important things:
»
» 1) The dermis and epidermis form first. Hair follicles form
» second. The order is sequential, not concurrent.
»
» 2) The initiation of a hair follicle depends on complex interactions
» between the epidermis and the dermis.
»
» I mention this because it gets back to the debate on when the ‘embryonic
» window’ opens. If you’ve just removed the epidermis (via sandpaper,
» chemical peels, dermabrasion procedures, etc.) how do you reckon hair
» follicles are going to be created? That is to say, if the creation of hair
» follicles depends on the epidermis, and you’ve just nuked the epidermis,
» you are obviously not going to be creating hair follicles at that point.
»
» So, there’s no point in mucking with the EGF pathway immediately after
» wounding, since follicles are not even eligible to be formed at that point.
» Ideally, you would wait until the epidermis has been regenerated to a
» near-complete state. When that happens (that is, re-epithelialization has
» taken place), then the epidermis is ready to cross-talk with the dermis to
» form hair follicles. It’s at this point that you want to intervene.
»
» Having said all this, we still don’t know what happens if you start early
» in humans. In mice, enhancing WNT early doesn’t seem to be a problem (other
» than the fact that follicles will lack pigment.) Is the same true of EGF? I
» wish I knew. Although it’s pointless to start early, one reason you might
» want to start a little early is to ensure that you don’t miss the window.
»
»

There has been some talk about inhibiting wnt for a period first before boosting it. What is this about? Can someone explain the reasoning for this? If I was going to do this, I would try

  1. Promoting wnt (lithium orotate/caffeine/dmso/others…) 1 week before wounding.
  2. Wound (TCA Peel)
  3. Continue to promote wnt (no breaks)and start to inhibit egf-r on day 1.
  4. Continue to promote wnt and inhibit egf-r for 2 weeks, doing each at separate intervals day/night.
  5. No shampooing or soaps on scalp after wounding, just wash with water pressure from the shower.

Unless starting early on boosting wnt and inhibiting egf-r is counter-productive to the experiment, the only thing I can think of that left, if the above doesn’t work, is the use of topical cyclosporin with the experiment.


#19

» » Here’s another good image of what happens in the embryo. This is the
» » process that Follica hopes to replicate.
» »
» » Two important things:
» »
» » 1) The dermis and epidermis form first. Hair follicles form
» » second. The order is sequential, not concurrent.
» »
» » 2) The initiation of a hair follicle depends on complex interactions
» » between the epidermis and the dermis.
» »
» » I mention this because it gets back to the debate on when the
» ‘embryonic
» » window’ opens. If you’ve just removed the epidermis (via sandpaper,
» » chemical peels, dermabrasion procedures, etc.) how do you reckon hair
» » follicles are going to be created? That is to say, if the creation of
» hair
» » follicles depends on the epidermis, and you’ve just nuked the
» epidermis,
» » you are obviously not going to be creating hair follicles at that
» point.
» »
» » So, there’s no point in mucking with the EGF pathway immediately after
» » wounding, since follicles are not even eligible to be formed at that
» point.
» » Ideally, you would wait until the epidermis has been regenerated to a
» » near-complete state. When that happens (that is, re-epithelialization
» has
» » taken place), then the epidermis is ready to cross-talk with the dermis
» to
» » form hair follicles. It’s at this point that you want to intervene.
» »
» » Having said all this, we still don’t know what happens if you start
» early
» » in humans. In mice, enhancing WNT early doesn’t seem to be a problem
» (other
» » than the fact that follicles will lack pigment.) Is the same true of
» EGF? I
» » wish I knew. Although it’s pointless to start early, one reason you
» might
» » want to start a little early is to ensure that you don’t miss the
» window.
» »
» »


»
» There has been some talk about inhibiting wnt for a period first before
» boosting it. What is this about? Can someone explain the reasoning for
» this? If I was going to do this, I would try
»
» 1. Promoting wnt (lithium orotate/caffeine/dmso/others…) 1 week before
» wounding.
» 2. Wound (TCA Peel)
» 3. Continue to promote wnt (no breaks)and start to inhibit egf-r on day
» 1.
» 4. Continue to promote wnt and inhibit egf-r for 2 weeks, doing each at
» separate intervals day/night.
» 5. No shampooing or soaps on scalp after wounding, just wash with water
» pressure from the shower.
»
» Unless starting early on boosting wnt and inhibiting egf-r is
» counter-productive to the experiment, the only thing I can think of that
» left, if the above doesn’t work, is the use of topical cyclosporin with the
» experiment.

Doesn’t the first patent mention wnt up-regulating but the second patent has no mention? And if so what would you suggest is the reason? Also it appears that many of the DIY people are having a problem taking oral egf-r for long periods. Shouldn’t this be minimized by taking only during the so called embryonic window?


#20

» » » Here’s another good image of what happens in the embryo. This is the
» » » process that Follica hopes to replicate.
» » »
» » » Two important things:
» » »
» » » 1) The dermis and epidermis form first. Hair follicles form
» » » second. The order is sequential, not concurrent.
» » »
» » » 2) The initiation of a hair follicle depends on complex interactions
» » » between the epidermis and the dermis.
» » »
» » » I mention this because it gets back to the debate on when the
» » ‘embryonic
» » » window’ opens. If you’ve just removed the epidermis (via sandpaper,
» » » chemical peels, dermabrasion procedures, etc.) how do you reckon hair
» » » follicles are going to be created? That is to say, if the creation of
» » hair
» » » follicles depends on the epidermis, and you’ve just nuked the
» » epidermis,
» » » you are obviously not going to be creating hair follicles at that
» » point.
» » »
» » » So, there’s no point in mucking with the EGF pathway immediately
» after
» » » wounding, since follicles are not even eligible to be formed at that
» » point.
» » » Ideally, you would wait until the epidermis has been regenerated to a
» » » near-complete state. When that happens (that is, re-epithelialization
» » has
» » » taken place), then the epidermis is ready to cross-talk with the
» dermis
» » to

» Doesn’t the first patent mention wnt up-regulating but the second patent
» has no mention? And if so what would you suggest is the reason? Also it
» appears that many of the DIY people are having a problem taking oral egf-r
» for long periods. Shouldn’t this be minimized by taking only during the so
» called embryonic window?

I’m far from being an expert by any means, but I stand by my own belief that egf-r inhibitors are taken topically.