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Benji, Baccy, and other Folica experimenters


#1

So where are we now?

  1. With the Gentifib cancer patient, we’ve got a case of major regrowth from EGF-R inhibition. And there was probably (but not surely) some major immunosuppression going along with it.

  2. But Baccy presents better regrowth than I got from the EGF-R inhibition alone. This despite the fact that his experiment protocol was farther from the Gentifib case (and most of the patents) than mine was.

So is the immunosuppression the missing key, or is it WNT manipulation?

Does anybody have any ideas about what those two things might have in common? It might be our remaining misunderstood factor.

As a side note, I didn’t regrow anything from wounds made either during or before the EGF-R. So although we’re all starting to believe the waiting period after wounding is probably a decoy, the results I got do not actually confirm it yet either way. The best confirmation we have is that both Baccy and the cancer patient did not employ major waiting periods for the EGF-R inhibition after wounding.


#2

» So where are we now?
»
»
»
» 1. With the Gentifib cancer patient, we’ve got a case of major regrowth
» from EGF-R inhibition. And there was probably (but not surely) some major
» immunosuppression going along with it.
»
» 2. But Baccy presents better regrowth than I got from the EGF-R
» inhibition alone. This despite the fact that his experiment protocol was
» farther from the Gentifib case (and most of the patents) than mine was.
»
»
»
»
» So is the immunosuppression the missing key, or is it WNT manipulation?
»
» Does anybody have any ideas about what those two things might have
» in common?
It might be our remaining misunderstood factor.
»
»
»
»
» As a side note, I didn’t regrow anything from wounds made either during or
» before the EGF-R. So although we’re all starting to believe the waiting
» period after wounding is probably a decoy, the results I got do not
» actually confirm it yet either way. The best confirmation we have is that
» both Baccy and the cancer patient did not employ major waiting periods for
» the EGF-R inhibition after wounding.

I’ve asked in the past several X’s why wait 3 days after wounding – was there a purpose behind it. I never got an answer. I figure your skin will try to heal as soon after the wound was made. Who knows, maybe you wait 3 days if you are doing the immune suppresant thing.


#3

Next time I’ll be inhibiting BEFORE wounding. We are, of course, only assuming that I was inhibiting AT ALL. Quercetin is known to inhibit EGF but does it work topically? Same with milk thistle extract. Does it work topically? I think we can safely assume that Cal was inhibiting EGF as he was using a synthetic drug designed for the purpose.
Even with this tannic acid which I plan to try, medical papers claim EGF inhibition ‘in vitro’. It may be another matter entirely ‘in vivo’.

I also want to say that I’m a bit worried about anyone using strong immunosuppressants. They clearly are not to be taken lightly and can phuck up your body permanently. I wouldn’t like to see anyone seriously damage themselves or worse, in the pursuit of getting their hair back.
Roxithromycin (I’ve ordered some) seems relatively safe.


#4

» Next time I’ll be inhibiting BEFORE wounding. We are, of course, only
» assuming that I was inhibiting AT ALL. Quercetin is known to inhibit EGF
» but does it work topically? Same with milk thistle extract. Does it work
» topically? I think we can safely assume that Cal was inhibiting EGF as he
» was using a synthetic drug designed for the purpose.
» Even with this tannic acid which I plan to try, medical papers claim EGF
» inhibition ‘in vitro’. It may be another matter entirely ‘in vivo’.
»
» I also want to say that I’m a bit worried about anyone using strong
» immunosuppressants. They clearly are not to be taken lightly and can phuck
» up your body permanently. I wouldn’t like to see anyone seriously damage
» themselves or worse, in the pursuit of getting their hair back.
» Roxithromycin (I’ve ordered some) seems relatively safe.

Follica asserts “non natural egfr inibitor” so i doubt quercetin is enough…
can you have the possibility to try with topical gefitinib?

About roxi, is not an immunosoppressant.I understand what you mean but immunosoppressant are not only systemic.
What about tacrolimus cream or pimecrolimus ? They are safe and approved for topical use.
My fear with topical immunosoppressant is the possibile interaction
between cream and the rest of process…

I would ask you again if you can try with non-natural egfr inib. …
i think all attempts should be done with gefitinib-like.

edit :
1 experiment should be done in an “absolute no hair” area , like somebody has already wrote.
I hope i can obtain the drugs shortly even if i doubt we’ll obtain decent results…


#5

This might be off topic, but in light of Baccy’s recent pics I thought I might throw this out there to see if anybody else had a similar experience.

I obtained a Minoxidil/Retin-A formula back in 2003 when my bald spot was beginning to show quite distinctly. This stuff burned/itched my scalp like crazy and I fell into a rather poor habit of constantly scratching it. My crown got bright red and in some places I was bleeding.

To my surprise, hair started to grow more thickly in the areas most damaged by the scratching; this happened after I became disciplined enough to prevent myself from scratching my scalp. I did a great deal of research and asked all of the doctors that I know if what I was experiencing was even possible. Some of them said that Retin-A can be cancer causing (in mice mind you) and that Minoxidil doesn’t really regrow hair like I very firmly believed I was experiencing. I did some online research and figured that the risk of cancer wasn’t worth it and that I was just fooling myself…

Fast forward to today; my baldness has spread to a rather shiny NW5 as I just accepted the fact that I will not have the extraordinarily thick hair I enjoyed many years earlier. After seeing Baccy’s pics, I’m wondering if the combination of what I had going on would have been sufficient to get similar results.

Any thoughts?


#6

» I did a great deal of research
» and asked all of the doctors that I know if what I was experiencing was
» even possible. Some of them said that Retin-A can be cancer causing (in
» mice mind you) … I did some online research and figured
» that the risk of cancer wasn’t worth it …

tretinoin causing cancer ? links ? FWIK, it interferes with the growth of cancer cells, slowing their growth, it’s really an anti-cancer drug i.e :

http://www.chemocare.com/bio/tretinoin.asp

OTOH, it is known that irritants grow some hair.


#7

I’m pretty reckless but I’m unwilling to go as far as taking some potentially damaging drugs. I’m aware that these drugs would only be taken for a limited time of 10 to 14 days but I can’t shake the feeling that the possibility of permanent and serious damage could occur in even such a short time. Some of the drugs we’ve been discussing are serious sht. Cyclosporine for example, was reluctantly offered to a friend of mine as a last resort for an intestinal problem. But only as a last resort. We can’t just frivolously take dangerous drugs. I’d rather be a bald bstard than a hairy dying tw*t.
I’d advise everyone to exercise some caution here.


#8

Well, I only did the oral EGF-R inhibition after some hard thoughts about it first.

I’m not gonna do any immunosuppression orally right now. I’ll go topical for that. If Folica plans to do it topically then I’ll try to figure out how to make it work.

But back to the original question, WTF do Baccy’s method and Folica’s (probable) method have in common?

I’m not surprised that we’re finding multiple ways to make this work. But how in the hell are they two ways that seem so little-related to each other?

Folica seems to be mainly about suppressing the body’s normal procedures that prevent follicle production.

Whereas Baccy’s method of action sounds like it’s more centered on leaving the suppression angle alone, and just encouraging follicle production with the WNT signalling.


#9

»
» But back to the original question, WTF do Baccy’s method
» and Folica’s (probable) method have in common?
They
» seem so totally different.
»
» Folica seems to be mainly about suppressing the body’s normal procedures
» that prevent follicle production.
»
» Whereas Baccy’s method of action sounds like it’s more centered on leaving
» the suppression angle alone, and just encouraging follicle production with
» the WNT signalling.

i have no idea at this time… i remember a previous patent from Cotsarelis …
could this give some help ?


#10

» … “OTOH, it is known that irritants grow some hair.”

Sceptic FWIW many many years ago I used to be an assistant in a clinic and one of my duties was to tightly bandage patients that just had a liposuction as they came out of the OR. They kept this tight bandage for a few days to a week. I noticed after a few months doing that work, that whereas I applied way too much bandage pressure the patient grew (at later time) vellus and also many times good hair (terminal) that looked just like (texture, character) men’s chest hair.
As it was usually unwanted hair (on the females) they usually lasered them off. Now we can think that some of the probable mechanisms involved were…

a) the internal injuries made by the lipo cannuli sometimes working/scratching too close near the surface of the skin,
b) the tight bandage, compromising temporarily and intermitently blood/nutrient supplies,
c) chemicals used topically
d) their immune systems where somewhat diminished during that time due to the huge amounts of anti inflammatory drugs taken

It is known that not only irritants of chemical origin, but almost anything that insults (deeply enough) or injures (deeply enough and not too much)our skin will promote many different (some of them known) responses being one of them hair growth or at least behavioral hair changes.

So if one considers that a shiny norwood-7 man has the same amount of hair (under the scalp it is) that a norwood-2, but those follicles are in a quite unknown resting or latent or “I’ve quit working” state, then one of the goals would be to somehow awaken this hairs not only focusing in methods to create new hairs. Inspecting with optical gear we can see that a “completely bald” crown or temporal area has a lot (hundreds and hundreds) of colorless/growthless micro vellus hairs (maybe the rest of them not growing thru the skin).

What Baccy, Benji and Cal (and others) are doing is great! Kudos.

We may also keep in mind many other possible combinations of products (chemicals) and/or mechanical (abrassion) and/or physical (laser or RF) methods to awaken these many thousands of dormant hair follicles.

Systemic?
Systemic + Topicals?
Systemic + Topicals + Mechanicals?
Systemic + Topicals + Mechanicals + Psysical?

:slight_smile: ?

Be safe!

drcb


#11

I’ll restate my point about the two people who had a great deal of growth with getfitinib.

Both were taking the drug for cancer (its a cancer drug).

Both probably had compromised immune systems (chemo can suppress the immune system profoundly).

Lets go to the human skin series of experiments on SCID mice. Was a EGF-receptor blocker used? No. The depilated, waited three days, and abraded. Thats it. No getfitinib. What is the difference between human skin on a SCID mouse and human skin on you? You have a working immune system that will send cells to a wound and fight off any infection in the area and inflame it with various cells, attacking invading bacteria, fungi, parasites and whatever else is in the air that lights on the broken skin----where you are vunerable, just like it is supposed to do.

Follica may try this with just very strong anti-inflammatories and anti-histamines and anti-microbials and anti-bacterials topically applied with a EGF-antagonist and minoxidil. That may prove to be a winner because the immune systems travelling cells wont see much “amiss” and the foreign invaders that it seeks to destroy will not be in evidence in the area. Concievably one might be able to use an anti-histamine and ibuprofin (anti-inflammatory) along with egf inhibition.

The mice didn’t have any of those things though…they just had a suppressed immune system.

I have a feeling Follica, with two dermatological experts working for them, will be able to make this go without interdicting the immunity of a person topically or internally, but you’ll note they put that option in the patent. Maybe they dont want another entity to try it because they feel sure it would work, or maybe they included the immunosuppressants cyclo, rampycin, tacromilus, pinecromilus, and one other one because they knew if all else failed that they could indeed get growth if they resorted to this.

Sales of cyclosporin worldwide are 1 billion a year. Lots of people have to take it for a year or so. I really dont think 10 or 12 days of it (you might have to be on it for a couple of days before the wounding) would kill a healthy man or even compromise his health.

If someone put a gun to my head though and told me to get growth by any means possible, I’d say use getfitinib, internal cyclo, and internal loniten for ten full days after a 3 day wait after depilation before the wounding.

We must also keep in mind that there are other things buried in the patent like beta catenin, ectodysplasin, fgf, and a couple of other things that they might be screwing with…

The mind goes back to that human skin experiment and the getfitinib patients though. Weak immune systems, getfitinib. It made hair on someone’s freakin’ nose. Those two should be enough.


#12

So then perhaps I wasn’t merely fooling myself and perhaps I did regrow hair as I believe I did.


#13

» So then perhaps I wasn’t merely fooling myself and perhaps I did regrow
» hair as I believe I did.

sounds like massive regrowth you’ve had.


#14

Benji/Cal/Baccy:

Two questions regarding Baccy’s DIY Follica results:

  1. Is there any reason why each of the new/rejuvenated hair follicles (i.e., the black marks on the top of Baccy’s head) would NOT grow full and healthy hair in the next few months or so?

  2. Could Baccy’s next attempt have any negative impact on the results from the first treatment, such as killing off some of the new follicular development?

I’m currently a NW4 with a pattern that looks to result in a NW6. I guess if I decide to experiment as well, I will need to shave my entire head and treat all areas that are bald or thinning.

» I’ll restate my point about the two people who had a great deal of growth
» with getfitinib.
»
»
» Both were taking the drug for cancer (its a cancer drug).
»
» Both probably had compromised immune systems (chemo can suppress the
» immune system profoundly).
»
»
»
»
»
» Lets go to the human skin series of experiments on SCID mice. Was a
» EGF-receptor blocker used? No. The depilated, waited three days, and
» abraded. Thats it. No getfitinib. What is the difference between human
» skin on a SCID mouse and human skin on you?
You have a working immune
» system that will send cells to a wound and fight off any infection in the
» area and inflame it with various cells, attacking invading bacteria, fungi,
» parasites and whatever else is in the air that lights on the broken
» skin----where you are vunerable, just like it is supposed to do.
»
»
»
»
» Follica may try this with just very strong anti-inflammatories and
» anti-histamines and anti-microbials and anti-bacterials topically applied
» with a EGF-antagonist and minoxidil. That may prove to be a winner because
» the immune systems travelling cells wont see much “amiss” and the foreign
» invaders that it seeks to destroy will not be in evidence in the area.
» Concievably one might be able to use an anti-histamine and ibuprofin
» (anti-inflammatory) along with egf inhibition.
»
» The mice didn’t have any of those things though…they
» just had a suppressed immune system.
»
»
»
» I have a feeling Follica, with two dermatological experts working for
» them, will be able to make this go without interdicting the immunity of a
» person topically or internally, but you’ll note they put that option in the
» patent. Maybe they dont want another entity to try it because they feel
» sure it would work, or maybe they included the immunosuppressants cyclo,
» rampycin, tacromilus, pinecromilus, and one other one because they knew if
» all else failed that they could indeed get growth if they resorted to this.
»
»
»
»
»
» Sales of cyclosporin worldwide are 1 billion a year. Lots of people have
» to take it for a year or so. I really dont think 10 or 12 days of it (you
» might have to be on it for a couple of days before the wounding) would kill
» a healthy man or even compromise his health.
»
»
»
»
»
»
» If someone put a gun to my head though and told me to get growth by any
» means possible, I’d say use getfitinib, internal cyclo, and internal
» loniten for ten full days after a 3 day wait after depilation before the
» wounding.
»
»
»
» We must also keep in mind that there are other things buried in the patent
» like beta catenin, ectodysplasin, fgf, and a couple of other things that
» they might be screwing with…
»
»
» The mind goes back to that human skin experiment and the getfitinib
» patients though. Weak immune systems, getfitinib. It made hair on someone’s
» freakin’ nose. Those two should be enough.


#15

» Benji/Cal/Baccy:
»
»
» Two questions regarding Baccy’s DIY Follica results:
»
» 1) Is there any reason why each of the new/rejuvenated hair follicles
» (i.e., the black marks on the top of Baccy’s head) would NOT grow full and
» healthy hair in the next few months or so?

yes of course there is a reason. I got a tiny worse result with wounding only, the hair never grew terminal on their own. I believe I got two terminal hair from it. The two are terminal from the begining and the rest of it stayed semi terminal even though its been a year from my first wounding atempt (though I’m now having some aditional success with the progesterone I’m trying)

»
» 2) Could Baccy’s next attempt have any negative impact on the results from
» the first treatment, such as killing off some of the new follicular
» development?
»
»

Well I guess we’ll see. To be honest, the current growth Baccy experienced is nothing jaw dropping so even if his next try would not work and destroyed his previos results, he might not be too bothered. Chances are that next try will work better and that could be interesting then.

» I’m currently a NW4 with a pattern that looks to result in a NW6. I guess
» if I decide to experiment as well, I will need to shave my entire head and
» treat all areas that are bald or thinning.
»

you can always try some smaller bald place on your head. you dont have to do whole head at once. Experiments are worth a try even in a smaller scale.


#16

Thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression that once follicular development/rejuvenation occurred, there wouldn’t be any additional obstacles to hair growth. In your case, I thought you were simply less successful in creating the initial hair germs.

If all of Baccy’s initial hairs grow terminal, he could have decent coverage upfront. That would be extremely significant in my view.

» » Benji/Cal/Baccy:
» »
» »
» » Two questions regarding Baccy’s DIY Follica results:
» »
» » 1) Is there any reason why each of the new/rejuvenated hair follicles
» » (i.e., the black marks on the top of Baccy’s head) would NOT grow full
» and
» » healthy hair in the next few months or so?
»
» yes of course there is a reason. I got a tiny worse result with wounding
» only, the hair never grew terminal on their own. I believe I got two
» terminal hair from it. The two are terminal from the begining and the rest
» of it stayed semi terminal even though its been a year from my first
» wounding atempt (though I’m now having some aditional success with the
» progesterone I’m trying)
»
» »
» » 2) Could Baccy’s next attempt have any negative impact on the results
» from
» » the first treatment, such as killing off some of the new follicular
» » development?
» »
» »
»
» Well I guess we’ll see. To be honest, the current growth Baccy experienced
» is nothing jaw dropping so even if his next try would not work and
» destroyed his previos results, he might not be too bothered. Chances are
» that next try will work better and that could be interesting then.
»
»
» » I’m currently a NW4 with a pattern that looks to result in a NW6. I
» guess
» » if I decide to experiment as well, I will need to shave my entire head
» and
» » treat all areas that are bald or thinning.
» »
»
» you can always try some smaller bald place on your head. you dont have to
» do whole head at once. Experiments are worth a try even in a smaller scale.


#17

A typical hair follicle is, what, like 4mm deep into the scalp skin? But even the deepest dermabrasion/wounding that we’re talking about would be hitting blood beyond 1mm. This procedure is to START hair follicles forming again. They’ll do a lot more developing than just what’s in the regenerated layer itself once they get going.

So I think repeated wounding of this type shouldn’t be a risk to destroy existing follicles. It might even help heal them a little thicker.

Sceptic FWIW many many years ago I used to be an assistant in a clinic and one of my duties was to tightly bandage patients that just had a liposuction as they came out of the OR. They kept this tight bandage for a few days to a week. I noticed after a few months doing that work, that whereas I applied way too much bandage pressure the patient grew (at later time) vellus and also many times good hair (terminal) that looked just like (texture, character) men’s chest hair.

I hope that’s not anything too telling.

At least it was showing up on the body, where it logically should look like something other than scalp hairs.

But it bears some thought.

I wonder about chemo cancer patients that get their hair growing back afterwards with different characteristics . . . could we be taking the risk of causing this kind of change?

I don’t know if science understands what causes that or not.

But once again I’m just gonna fall back on the numerous anecdotal stories about hair regrowth from wounds. They don’t talk about how the person regrew blond hairs on a brunette head. So I think we’d have seen a lot more of this if it was a real possibility. The procedure we’re talking about involves man-made drugs, but it’s still rooted largely in the body’s healing mechanisms.

The chemo patients are undergoing something much different overall.


#18

» » So then perhaps I wasn’t merely fooling myself and perhaps I did regrow
» » hair as I believe I did.
»
» sounds like massive regrowth you’ve had.

I had some noticeable regrowth to the point that it seemed that if I continued it then my hair would indeed have returned. And it did happen after scratching so hard that there was bleeding, at which point I made it a habit to NOT scratch anymore. Scabs formed and then to my astonishment, so did new hair. Because I was getting hit full blast with the reality of losing my hair, I dismissed it as merely self-deception.